A Crowley
how can Crowley be considered a satanist (as it says in so many books and the fcos FAQ page) if he was a thelmalite and very really used Satan in his weightings?
i know he was the foundation of many satanic ideals but he was also responsible directly in setting up modern wicca but that didn't make him a ICC!!!!
I was going to say I'd pretty much answered this elsewhere on the board but thats irrelevant in light of recent events.
There aren't a great deal of differences between Thelema and satanism. If you consider satanism as a religion that does not worship any kind of deity. That said the principles of Luciferianism and satanism are similar anyway, just one may use an archetype and the other may believe in an entity.
The main difference between Thelema and satanism is the magick systems. Thelema uses stricter ceremonial magick and has a ranking system wheras satanism has no strict guidelines at all. Most of the attitudes of existence are the same.
Is a Thelemite a satanist? Is a satanist an atheist? The two questions have similar bearings in that its hard to actually form a yes or no answer to either!
Dimension Registered User
Posts: 1
(4/28/03 4:50 am) Reply
Re: Crowley & Wicca New's to me that crowley was responcible for wicca, their was me thinking it was all down to Gerald Garderener and his perverted lust's for staring at nude gurls with no cloth's on.. Going 'SkyClad!' as he so elequantly put it! Strange that running round nude with a cat of nine tails didnt become fashionable till he got involved with his idealism of what witchcraft should be..
Edited by: Dimension at: 4/28/03 4:57:59 am
Re: Crowley & Wicca
its true allow going skyclad was not an excuse its an old Irish custom that was adapted. anyway back to Crowley, I fail to see how he's a Satanist still as themalites belive in many gods elementals and satanists say you can belive in them but most satanists will say thay don't exist. also thelmaites wish to reach there hirer self's and satanists wish to fulfill there ego. personally I see very little connection between the two, to say Crowley was a Satanist is like saying he was a Wicca and although he maid a considerable donation to both he was mealy a hand in rebuilding it much like he did for the freemasons
Re: Crowley & Wicca
Who exactly describes Crowley as a Satanist? I just went through the FAQ and it doesn't once claim Crowley to be a satanist.
Many core philosophical beliefs of satanism are taken from Crowley. They're also taken from Nietzsche but I wouldn't call him a satanist either. But they both thought like satanists.
I doubt either of them would take the label were they alive today but then a lot of people don't. A rose by any other name etc. What will it take to get you to see past labels?
As for not seeing any connection with thelema and satanism, I would say you're not looking hard enough. Stop looking without actually seeing.
Reaching the higher self is not the same as ego fulfilment? It would seem that would be an INDIVIDUAL opinion on the higher self really. I suspect what you're doing is seeing two ways of describing the same thing and seeing them as different.
Feel free to argue and back up your statements though. I'm interested to know the sources of your info. Always remember that most sources of information are biased in some way.
HelenMD Moderator
Posts: 116
(4/30/03 3:58 pm) Reply
?
Going skyclad is not an Irish custom I've ever heard of. Especially not when you consider the normal state of Irish weather. Nor is tit-kissing and anything else Gardener quite fancied and thus ritualised.
Where did you hear that?
Re: ?
its an old Irish pagan custom, that was meant to make fertile crops. Its in the witches bible and a couple of other wicca books that talk about the history. The other stuff is also to do with fertility and worship of the fertility cycle of the earth.
jofazer Registered User
Posts: 6
(5/6/03 9:33 pm) Reply
weird
Yeah, without wanting to sound completely dumb, just like to add I aquired Crowleys book of Magik some years ago, I bought it from a magazine, totally unaware of who he was or did etc, tried reading the bloody book, wot the hell was that all about? total weird @#%$, the most frigged up stuff ever, then later I read he was heavily into drugs, well that figures. is it really relevant to read stuff thats being writen by someone not on this planet?
That's pretty funny, I understand what you mean.
However reading ABOUT Crowley can be inspiring, or very entertaining at least. I can guarantee that it isn't boring. Try and get hold of 'A Magick Life' by Martin Booth - if you haven't already of course. It's a Crowley biography. I think you'll really like it.
I'm a Crowley fan but I know he's far from perfect.
His own 'Diary of a Drug Fiend' is a great read, I think.
Re: going skyclad
Considering there is no compelling historic evidence to support Wiccanism's claim that it is carrying on the 'ancient religion' I still find that hard to believe. But I will look into that.
Re: going skyclad
Well as for carrying on the old religion Wicca doesn’t and it cant, its is neo-pagan and like all the others it just takes parts from everywhere and peaces it together. Of the top of my head ill give a few of the main resources of modern wicca (most almost nothing to do with wicca) 1. The witch’s bible (Italian gipsy text), 2. The key of Solomon (Jewish magickal text), 3.mithology from all Europe, 4.Crowley, 5.Folk customs around the formally Celtic areas, 6. The golden bough by Frazer
HelenMD Moderator
Posts: 127
(5/10/03 11:32 am) Reply
neo-pagan
Neo-pagan means they are harking back to 'ancient religion'. Just like neo-nazi means they are harking back to the nazism of the third reich.
I see neo-paganism as the rape of celtic (and other) mythology by the comfy cardigan brigade. They are very selective about which 'ancient' traditions and rites they reconstruct and and it lifts it all out of context and thus cheapens it. There are some very unpleasant fertility rites and initiation rites and so on which still go on in the world today in societies who sick to their traditions. Wiccans seem to only go for the naked ones or the fluffy ones.
I'm not claiming supremacy here but I found a lot of insincerity, pretensiousness and bullshit among Wiccans. I'm not saying they are all like that but there is a lot of it in there.
Edited by: HelenMD at: 5/10/03 2:16:45 pm
Re: neo-pagan
I know what you mean I have met 4 tipes of wiccans the dark side ones who usually cut themselves, the extremist feminists (male and female), the really sex orientated ones, and the philosophers and scientists (usually drug users) who make being a neo-pagan worth while
New's to me that crowley was responcible for wicca, their was me thinking it was all down to Gerald Garderener and his perverted lust's for staring at nude gurls with no cloth's on.. Going 'SkyClad!' as he so elequantly put it! Strange that running round nude with a cat of nine tails didnt become fashionable till he got involved with his idealism of what witchcraft should be..
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