Alkanoonion
Thain
Posts: 270
(1/21/04 8:27 am)
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Could you see the races of man ever being allowed into Valin
Could you see the races of man ever being allowed into Valinor?
We know that the Númenóreans had lived in close proximity to the Valar on the island kingdom of the Dúnedain, The Island had been raised from the sea by the Valar as a gift to the Men who had remained faithful through the dark years of the First Age , Due to mans weakness and pride they lost the favour of the Valar after the rebellion of King Ar-Pharazôn of Númenor in 3319 (Second Age) He assailed Mordor and brought Sauron back to Númenor as a hostage, but Sauron seduced him, and persuaded him to sail on Valinor itself. As punishment for this act, the island of Númenor sank beneath the waves of the Great Sea, and Valinor and the lands of Aman were removed from the circles of the World, and could only be reached by the Elves, following the straight road that was kept open to them
Is it possible that man could one day be redeemed and be seen as worthy to live with the Valar ?
"The essence of knowledge is, having it, too apply it; not having it, to confess your ignorance."
Posts: 888 | From: Australia | Registered: December 11, 2002
Gwilamlug
Town Local
posted September 30, 2003 02:38 PM
I, personally, do not think that Man would ever be allowed to Valinor. Even though Elves were clearly not perfect, Man was considered too weak to really be able to redeem themselves. Unless a savior was among the people that did something remarkable, I do not think that they would ever be able to dwell in Valinor. As even Aragorn did not gain men entrance into Valinor with his deeds, I doubt that any other man could. It would take some remarkable feat to allow men to travel to live in the Undying Lands.
Come to think of it: even Turin's deeds could have gained entrance into Valinor. Beren's battle against Morgoth as well. All those quests did not ultimately end in Man's admittance into Valinor.
So, ultimately: no, I do not believe Man could ever gain permission to travel to Valinor.
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I never thought that it would come to this | I never thought you'd waste away | And now i'll wrestle with my brain and wash away with acid rain | Lay down with my ghosts and start to waste away. -- Seven Nations
Posts: 179 | From: Floating off into the sunset on a cloud drawn by shooting stars... | Registered: June 12, 2003
Neithan
new Born
posted October 03, 2003 06:17 AM
The island beyond the great Mountains of the Pelri was a refuge for the first born.
Meant as a gift, death had been denied to the first born, and like the Valar they would live until the end of Middle Earth and the completion of the great song.
The Valar knew that their undying state would, with the passing of the ages become a burden to them. Thus the Valar had planned to guide the first born to dwell in the lands of Valimar, so that they could protect them and also shield them against a world where every other being and creature was destined to die except for themselves.
If humans were ever allowed to enter Valinor, these humans would be an ever reminder of the elves immortality for the humans would grow old and die, despite the lands being called ‘The Undying Lands’ (Iluvatar had made human beings to die, and the Valar could not change this fact).
To understand how this idea of witnessing death when one is immortal, I give Lothlorien as an example;
Those grey elves trapped in middle earth felt the burden of immortality most keenly sort separation from those who were not immortal. They did not need or want their deaths as a reminder of the passage of time.
Thus Lothlorien was created by Galadhim with the aid of a ring of power.
At the centre of Lothloriens creation, its emblem was the Mallorn tree.
Altered to never age and die, these trees were designed to never lose their beauty, and to be a constant in an ever changing world.
However, with the destruction of the ring of power also came the destruction Galadhrims magic through that ring, along with all that was created with it.
And thus, Galadhrims people rather than watch the Mallorn trees grow old and die they chose to leave their home and return to Valinor where nothing would die.
Consequently, the process of life and death so affects the elf’s that they can not exist along-side it for long without it saddening them. Which is why I say that no, humans will never be allowed to enter Valinor. Valinor was and is a sanctuary for those who can not die against those beings that can.
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The power of a movement lies in the fact that it can indeed change the habits of people. This change is not the result of force but of dedication, of moral persuasion.
Steve Biko
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[This message was edited by Neithan on October 03, 2003 at 07:26 AM.]
Posts: 30 | Registered: August 31, 2003
HerenIstarion
posted October 06, 2003 03:25 AM
The answer given (no, man would not be allowed to enter Valinor) is basically correct, but argument given to support seems weak
First, why basically? Because ringbearers were admitted to Valinor, and they were of mortal race. They were let in as their great deeds were aknowledged and they needed healing
Second, not because the presence and death of mortals in Valinor would make elves sad (well, if somebody dear dies, it does not matter for those grieving how far his/her death took place), but rather the immortality of immortal would make mortals present in Valinor envious, least they be peaople of great wisdom and bliss not to suffer leaving the earth of their love and know that others beside them will never loose it until its end
George Lashkhi
Posts: 14 | From: Tbilisi, Georgia | Registered: December 12, 2002
Neithan
new Born
posted October 06, 2003 06:21 PM
quote:
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the immortality of immortal would make mortals present in Valinor envious,
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I cannot disagree with this statement for that is what had happened with the Numenoreans. All I'm trying to state is that the emotional effect mortals have over the first born is not something to be ignored.
quote:
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Ringbearers were admitted to Valinor, and they were of mortal
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Being that they were Ringbearers demonstrates that these individuals possessed the very traits that would prevent them from being envious of the immortal state, as they were able to resist the temptations that the ring of power offered. They were ‘people of great wisdom and bliss’
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The power of a movement lies in the fact that it can indeed change the habits of people. This change is not the result of force but of dedication, of moral persuasion.
Steve Biko
..........................................................................................
Posts: 30 | Registered: August 31, 2003
Dancing_Hobbit
Adolescent
posted December 10, 2003 06:16 PM
Since ringbearers were admitted to Valinor would it not be logical that some select few humans could be treated likewise? I agree that, as a race a whole, humans would never be admitted, but I think that, as with the ringbearers, humans who proved themselves (and, as HerenIstarion pointed out, needed healing) could sail to Valinor. Of course this would only be admissable if they did not have unfinnished business on Middle Earth. Aragorn could never travel to Valinor because he was needed as King for as long as he lived. Frodo, on the other hand, really didn't have anything keeping him there. His duty was done.
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Hobbits bow to nobody!... Except their plates...
Visit me in the Prancing Pony http://breeunderbreehill.com/6/ubb.x Edited by: Alkanoonion at: 1/21/04 8:30 am
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