Going Against the FKoC Flow! stop me!

WildFlames makes some good points and so does M'Rhan.
Honestly I spend way too much time maybe not neccessarily playing games, but on the internet, working on my webpage, and other stuff. Time I could be spending with the Lord. For Instance, I've been working on a commentary for the Book of James. Honestly I could probably be over half done with it, but I'm still working on showing who the author of James(That's in the introduction). I've wasted time in doing other things games etc.. when I could have been working on something that has the potential to help others grow in Christ and understanding his Word. I'm guilty I admit it. However I don't work, and can't go visiting people I know to witness to them. I've found and come in contact with people Christians and non-Christians that I've been able to share Christ with. People I normally wouldn't come in contact with anywhere else.
As far as gore, sexual content and the such, those bother me. I haven't always been a Christian so I had games that had some of both in there. You know what I did, I threw some away, like Leisure Suit Larry 7, and others because I felt convicted by God to do so. I've been questioned about D2, D1 and others. I look at them as pure enjoyment, I'm not actually thinking, oh cool, I'm a witch or anything. (I play as a sorceress.) However I could spend less time playing them and more with Christ, that I have been convicted of.

Heath

Author	Comment
WildFlames Private First Class (8/26/00 3:23 am) Reply	Going Against the FKoC Flow! stop me! Feeling Like Sticking My Neck Out Today (tonight rather), I am feeling sort of politically incorrect. I feel like sticking my neck out, and making some waves. I will question the whole idea of computer games. Now, before I begin, I would like to make some things very clear. I have not taken any position on any of these issues, yet. These are all questions that I am throwing out at all of you Knights of Christ. As some of you know, I am maintaining a compu gaming web site, so I do still enjoy computer games. Ok, here it goes. #1. Why Play computer games when our lives are so short and limited. We have a very, very limited life. As a matter of fact, I might die right now as I am writing this. Or, you might be raptured while you are reading this. Even if we don't leave this earth unexpectantly, and we do die at an old age, life still is very short. As the Bible says, it will be gone in a flash, and then we are in eternity. Then what's the sense in wasting our time killing people (Quake 3, Diablo, Deus Ex, and just about every other game), getting a sexual boost (Messiah, Tomb Raider, yes even Draken), or just plain wasting time (Roller coaster Tycoon, Monty python). Is it good to waste or time indulging in the flesh? Let's see what our Savior, Jesus says. First of all we are to.... Encourage Fellow Believers Spread the Gospel Help Those in Need Give to the Poor Take Up Our Crosses Follow in His Footsteps Hmmm, don't seem to see much on indulging in the flesh there! Actually, it is stated thought the Bible that we to ignore the flesh and grow in the Spirit. How would you feel if you stood before the Great White Throne, and you and God saw how much time you wasted blowing the brains out of a million people? Or, if when Jesus came back, you were slaying demons in Diablo 2? #2. Where does Corruption Become Corrupt? Here is a one that many Christians struggle with. Where do you draw the line? When is a computer game bad? In violence-wise, when is violence bad? A little blood is ok, but mega-gore isn't? Or does it matter? How can a Christian enjoy playing a game where the biggest goal to achieve is to slaughter people? What about when the Bible commands us to, "not kill", or "love thy enemy", or, "do good to those who hate you"? Or magic. Is a little bit of spell-casing ok, but Satanic rituals and symbols, a no-no? Well, they both are wizardry, and they both are Satanic. The Bible is very clear that summoning magic and spells is wrong. That it is an abomination to the Lord. Or on sexually-appealing games. Is a little bit of cartoonish cleavage or body-exposure ok (The Amazon or Sorceress in Diablo 2, Baldur's Gate, Deus Ex...), or what about more realistic (Tomb Raider, Drakan), or is nudity ok (Messiah, Omikron, Heavy Metal FAKK2). They all are the same, are they not? Sexually appealing female characters. Is that what we need conflicting in our walk with God, or our relationships with our female spouses. Or maybe girlfriends? Where should the line be drawn on these issues in gaming. And, if it is drawn, what guarantee do we have that we will not push it a bit farther with a "cool" game, and then push it a bit more farther with another "cool" game, until we have no standards at all? Then what will become of us? We will have to pick up our few strands of our faith and start where we left off, when we made that first step that seemed so harmless. Please brothers consider these things that I myself am struggling with now. Why waste our God-given moment for time-waiting pleasure that does nothing to help the body of Christ, except to maybe tear us down. Now I am not saying that I am giving up gaming, nor am I saying that you should do likewise. I just would like to make some waves, and see how you can help me as I grapple with this issue. I am looking forward to your responses... A wild fire is sweeping through the land, the light of it is crying, turn from you sin and follow the One who wants to save you, burning and shining all the way.... -WildFlames
Master Xefinacer Lance Corporal (8/26/00 8:05 am) Reply	Re: Going Against the FKoC Flow! stop me! Good points, good questions. These are things we must all deal with and they are no small matter. I will spend some time thinking before I say much more. Thanks Flames.
RshScks Private First Class (8/26/00 4:54 pm) Reply	Interesting points You are right about most of the games we play not be very christian like. I play games cause in todays age it is a way of communications with others. I find the internet and its games as a better means of entertainment than going to parties, or going to social hang outs. I believe that through these games, there is a perfect opportunity for us as people to witness to others about Jesus. This of course happens after you get to know them for awhile, and you start to ask questions you would not normally ask someone out of the blue. Diablo has a very satanic background, and that is a really bad thing, but the point of the game IMHO, is to beat the devil himself. So that is a good thing, even though it is violent and satanic. So what I am trying to say is the internet is a way for me to meet people, and is a better option to me then what a lot of people my age think is fun. I meet people that have similar interests as me, and after knowing that person for awhile, can start to talk to him about God, a perfect example for me is in Corp.Fox aka Julien, he did not even know what god was until we started to talk, and then he joined FKOC and found out more about God as well. So these games give us a great opportunity to witness to others about God.
NeXuS777 Private First Class (8/26/00 6:13 pm) Reply	Re: Interesting points The way I feel about gaming is it's a great way to open a door to start talking to people. I do not however play a game in charachter that would say use the name of satan to accomplish his goals. If a game does not have a good hero thats stands up to eveil I do not play. People have asked me why I play a Necro in Diablo II. I say to them that God raises goodly people to help me crush the evil and satan (ie. Diablo etc..) or angels of light like the Fire Golem as it burns all the unriteous away... some might question the ends to the means but I feel secure in my faith and christianity. Another example is Baulders Gate or Bauldersgate II. I would not create a char that is evil or chaotic evil etc... I make them Good, lawfull Good etc... That way I can witness why I play as do and it opens many doors :) if a Missionaries can go to the hart of evil where they practice Voodoo and witness to them then I see it as the same in a PC Game. You are going to the heart of evil and bringing Jesus to those we are able to relate to as in playing games... I hope I make sense hehe thats is my worst problem when ministering to people is my pain pills for my back make it hard to concentrate and help them see what I am trying to say... God Bless... NeXuS WWJD?
spaceman spiff Sergeant (8/26/00 6:51 pm) Reply	Re: Interesting points Those are some very good points that Christians should look into in their daily lives. Doom, for instance, is very gory, and at times, even satanic. That's why I don't play that game anymore, even though I have been getting that famous first-person shooter itch (that's why I can't wait to see Serious Sam on the store-shelves...) I like the multiplayer option in SC, D and D2 cuz you can tell kids about Christ where you usually would see some.
MRhan0 General (8/27/00 1:21 am) Reply	Re: Interesting points Good points. First, playing games isn't any worse than doing anything else so long as it doesn't take up all your time (ok, so I'm doing bad in that respect, but without a job yet or school, there isn't a lot else to do besides watch TV that isn't very good). Next, the point of what is good or bad in a game (or any other form of entertainment). This is almost entirely based on a person-by-person perspective. Not everyone is the same. For some people, just a little blood or violence can lead them from God. For others, like myself, none of that effects my relationship with God. I know what is real and what isn't. Many people claim that watching violent shows, or reading violent books, or playing violent games will cause you to be a violent person. This is entirely wrong! The way a person is raised determines that. If a person is raised to understand responsibility and respect and love, they are not likely to become "bad" because they saw some "bad" media. However, if a person is not raised well and isn't taught to be responsible and to respect and love others, then they will pick up on whatever is available to them. If they see violence around them, they will pick up on that because they weren't raised to know better. And parents who claims the media is the cause of kids being violent are teaching their kids that they don't have to be responsible. The parents aren't taking responsibility for their own kids' actions and the kids know this, so they aren't going to think they need to be responsible either. Yes, sometimes a kid raised well will turn out bad, but that is caused by normal rebelling against the parents and has nothing (or extremely little) to do with the media. If anything, it will be their peers that cause it, not the media. As for myself, I notice the graphics and details of the "scenery" in a game, but I don't pay it much attention. I am more interested in the gameplay than whether or not some computer graphic of a lady is clothed or not. I don't care about that. I mean, even if I was interested in looking at nude women, I'm certain I could find a more realistic picture than on a game. As for magic and other Satanic things... I think that there is a difference between practicing magic and just reading or playing a game about it. In a game/book/movie, you accept the fact that it isn't real. You aren't trying to make it real and you aren't practicing it. So, I personally don't have a problem with magic either. For satanic symbols in a game... again, that falls under the "scenery". I see it, but I don't pay it much attention. Yes, I prefer a game with good graphics, but the graphics slide past more than they stick. So, for myself, I don't have a problem with playing any game out there so long as it has good game play. I've not seen any that are specifically against Christianity and God... no game where you are Satan and attacking innocents or anything. If there was, I wouldn't play that, but otherwise, any game out there is fine with me if it has good game play. However, that is not for everyone. Everyone needs to be able to decide for themselves what their tolerance level is for any specific game, movie, or book. Well, there's my spiel and also a bit of my strong beliefs about parenting... I just had to put some of that in.
spaceman spiff Staff Sergeant (8/27/00 1:34 am) Reply	Re: Interesting points Good post, M'Rhan. I agree with everything you said. Couldn't of said it better. BRAVO!
F1rehawk General (8/28/00 4:41 pm) Reply	Re: Interesting points Wildflames, I'm glad you brought this up. I think this is an important issue that we really need to address. As wildflames stated, and as we all know, life is extremely short. Many of us have work, school, study, etc, where we don't have much time left to do anything else. So with that remaining time, what do you spend it on? That is something we must all ask ourselves. ARe you reading your bible and indulging in it as much as computer games? What is more important to you? Getting a level 54 sorceress char or a 100 wins/5 losses in starcraft? Or is it getting to know God and how he wants us to live our lives? Now that doesn't mean to totally give up things that give us pleasure. But ask yourself this question? Which God am i serving? The almighty God.......or is it the computer god, what about the tv god. The food god is also popular. Let us remember, that we as christians, must give our first and foremost attention(time) to God, and that means quality time, not 10min in between T.V. shows. It saids in the bible that we must tithe. Did you know that God wasn't just talking about our money? HE WAS TALKING ABOUT OUR TIME. If you are sincere in following God and knowing him, you need to give him 10% of your time, 2.4 hrs a day. Thats the ammount of time that some of us play our computer games. Some of us play more, I'm guilty of that. Another aspect to look at is our judgement of our time. When we get to heaven, God is going to judge us on how we used our time. Have you used your time wisely or wastefully? The hours you spend playing games, could they be used to better you knowledge of the bible, what it saids, and what it means? Of course! Many of you stated that online gaming is a good way to witness to others, but how can you witness to someone if you don't know what you are talking about?!? YOU NEED TO READ AND MEDITATE ON THE BIBLE. That means everyday, not just once a week, or once every couple days. How can you ever grow spiritually if you don't eat and drink the spiritual food that is the word of God. You can't. What games are good and what games are bad? hmm, thats a hard one. I think we all know which ones are good and which ones aren't. I'm sad to say, but Diablo2 is a primary example of a BAD game. Not only does it have demons, evil creatures, magic, THE DEVIL, and swinging pentagrams when you pause the game, but its basically an electronic DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS game. I don't know about the rest of you, but when I was young, i was taught to stay away from Dungeons and Dragon type games, because they are evil. Now, every time i played that game, i felt some type of conviction. Every single time. Do any of you feel some type of conviction, even a little? If you do, get rid of the game. Some games have violence, some games have nudity, some games have evil content, and sad to say but all those games are not good for christians or anybody for that matter. Even if games have little of that stuff, you'll soon become accustomed to it, then you'll see a little more and become accustomed to that. Pretty soon, a person will be desensitive to violence, nudity, "satanic" things etc. These are things we all deal with, especially me. I waste so many hours playing games that I shouldn't be playing. But the only way you are going to know if these are wrong is by reading the word of God and by praying. Remember, Who or What is your God?
WildFlames Private First Class (8/28/00 6:57 pm) Reply	Re: Interesting points Good Point Good point F1rehawk, for a little while I thought that absolutely nobody agreed with me! Like hawk said, I think that games are good, just as long as they... Don't make us stumble Don't take our focus off Christ When I posted my thoughts, I wasn't saying that it was wrong to play computer games, I just wanted to throw some things at you guys, because I think that it is necessary to think about these issues. BTW, I still play computer games because... It isn't forbidden in scripture to relax and have some enjoyment. It is a good way to take your mind of the issues of the day, and save the world!! But, in response to what M'Rhan said, it is important and it does matter if there is a nude woman in a game. Or, if there are a plenty of demons and "Satanic" symbols, or heavy magic. Now, I could write pages and pages of how the media has effected us throughout history, but I won't. Simply because I don't have to, the Bible has already made something clear that can eaisily take of this, its found in Phillipians 4:8... Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy�meditate on these things. Umm, I don't see anything about spending time looking at naked women(not that you do M'Rhan, you are a good guy, I just have to make my point that's all!), or spending hours with demons (I don't care if you slaughter them or not, they are still there!), or blowing people's legs, arms, and heads off, while you stand in their blood. I mean, that really isn't meditating on things of good report, or pure. I know many good people who play games like this, but still it isn't right. Why don't we watch X-rated movies? Why? Besides that verse above, I would like some answers. You see they do affect us, unless God wouldn't be so against it all. That's why I think that lines *must be drawn* in what types of games we play. My personal standerds are as follows... I will not play a game that is rated "M" unless it is rated "M" for blood and gore. Even then, however, I will not play it unless there is a Blood/Gore on/off option. A good example would be SWAT 3, or Deus Ex. I believe that it isn't good to be entertained by watching the dismemberment of other ppl's bodies. I will not play a game that is explicetly sex-centered. Tomb Raider or Messiah would fall under this cateragory. Drakan isn't too bad, however, I will not play it because it is a compromise, the game developers had sensuality on their mind in the making of Drakan, that is very obvious. However, if a game has some mild cases of sensuality or sex-stirring behavior in it, but if it is not portrayed in a glorious manner, or can be avoieded, I can see myslef playing that game. Such an example would be Deus Ex. Magically wise, I am still struggling and in the decision process. I couldn't see myself playing Diablo because of the Satanic sybols and the very "darkness" of the game. However, I am not too sure about games like Baldur's Gate, those are more like Medieval Hero Tales, rather than Dungeons and Dragons. These are my convictions. They don't have to be taken by all people, we are, after all, at different points of our sanctification. However, if a game includes material that is clearly "unpure" or "untrue", I can't see how a Christian could play it. If you would like to see secular games reviewed from a Christian perspective, go to my website, Christian Gamers for more info. Just had to stick that in. God bless all as we jounrey through this pilgramage called "Life". A Very Minor Note.. I didn't mean to bash M'Rhan here. He is a good Christian and we spend many hours in fellowhip. I just wanted to make a point here. A wild fire is sweeping through the land, the light of it is crying, turn from you sin and follow the One who wants to save you, burning and shining all the way.... -WildFlames
david75 Sergeant (8/28/00 8:13 pm) Reply	Re: Going Against the FKoC Flow! stop me! Arrgh, ya'll guys are killing me. (just joking) but i'm not joking about this issue. Wildflames you're not the first to bring this subject up but the more the subject comes up in our forum i'm getting abit more frustrated. I have both Diablo games ,and Baldur's Gate is one of 3 games i have and (hate to say it) but one of my favorite. None, and i mean none of these games have drawn me away from my love in Christ. yet, i don't feel convicted of these games. but seening my fellow Christians in this guild struggle with PC games and their faith has me searching for a answer on this issue even more. But one factor comes to mind, since i join this guild (which is center on Christ for Christian who plays PC games) i've meet some cool guys. i don't want to leave the clan and dis the relationships i've come across. It was my instrest in StarCraft that brought me here. And no regrets. so, do i drop the games and limit my chance of meeting other Christians who are gamers online? AS for time.. heh, that's funny i have a different prepective on it. Time is on my side on. earth or heaven. i do charish every moment , every word , every thought. yes this human life is too short for a 4 four game on b-net. BUT it was on battle net i found some friends and it was this non-constructive game that i got a chance to met them. i rarely play any game by myself but i try to find others to play with hoping i get to know someone better. see, what i'm saying? in a way it's these games i get too know people, sure i have my church buddies to hang out with, but why stop there? ARRGH, as for the content of my games. well, that is what i need to think of more. if i'm picky of what's inside a song or movie i guess i should be of a game. i'll get back to you on this...
WildFlames Private First Class (8/29/00 12:22 am) Reply	Re: Going Against the FKoC Flow! stop me! Hmmm, that is good Thanks for the resoponse David, it is good to hear info from both sides. I am just trying to ruffle some feathers, because this is an issue that can be looked over very easiliy. These games don't affect david or M'rhan. good point, but what I am getting at is, is it still something that Christians should particapate in. Ok, X-rated movies don't do a thing to me, who thinks I should start watching them on a regular basis? I'd like to see who would root me on here! :) Even sin it doens't affect your relationship with Christ, it still is sin, and should it be supported? I mean, none of us would give money to the "Jehovah Witnesses", simply because they are promoting a false doctrine, it doens't do anything to us, but we still wouldn't support it nevertheless. A wild fire is sweeping through the land, the light of it is crying, turn from you sin and follow the One who wants to save you, burning and shining all the way.... -WildFlames
Discipler Private First Class (8/29/00 9:55 pm) Reply	Re: Going Against the FKoC Flow! stop me! WildFlames makes some good points and so does M'Rhan. Honestly I spend way too much time maybe not neccessarily playing games, but on the internet, working on my webpage, and other stuff. Time I could be spending with the Lord. For Instance, I've been working on a commentary for the Book of James. Honestly I could probably be over half done with it, but I'm still working on showing who the author of James(That's in the introduction). I've wasted time in doing other things games etc.. when I could have been working on something that has the potential to help others grow in Christ and understanding his Word. I'm guilty I admit it. However I don't work, and can't go visiting people I know to witness to them. I've found and come in contact with people Christians and non-Christians that I've been able to share Christ with. People I normally wouldn't come in contact with anywhere else. As far as gore, sexual content and the such, those bother me. I haven't always been a Christian so I had games that had some of both in there. You know what I did, I threw some away, like Leisure Suit Larry 7, and others because I felt convicted by God to do so. I've been questioned about D2, D1 and others. I look at them as pure enjoyment, I'm not actually thinking, oh cool, I'm a witch or anything. (I play as a sorceress.) However I could spend less time playing them and more with Christ, that I have been convicted of. Heath
MRhan0 General (8/30/00 2:12 am) Reply	Re: Going Against the FKoC Flow! stop me! Well, yes and no, concerning if we should be around "evil". In order to minister to others, we need to be near them in their "evil" place. That happened with many. Even Jesus would talk and eat with sinners. That is not wrong. As for the X-rated movie thing.... I can say from seeing one at one point in my life that I wouldn't ever watch them again. Not because of the nudity/sex, but because the show was simply AWFUL. It was dull and boring and had no appeal to me in the least.
anvild Private First Class (8/30/00 9:50 pm) Reply	Re: Going Against the FKoC Flow! stop me! I think I must agree with WildFlames.....I HATE to say it, but I DO think D1,D2 are evil. And the thing is I love them, they are so...neat, I borrowed D1 from a friend and I've played D2 at his house but, I think I will not be buying them, they have a dark feeling, and, well, I DO feel bad when I'm playing them sometimes. I'll just play War3 when it comes out!!! I play games way to much and I'm trying to slow down a bit. Every one here has said somethin right, and maybe something wrong. I hmm...it is embaresing (sp) to admit this, but I DO like games where you have scantily clad females, and ANYTHING where woman are potrayed sexy. And I realize that this is wrong, but MAN it is really hard to stay away from that kinda stuff. Thats how God made us, to be atracted to woman, but he didn't make us to lust after every one of em. So I do strugle there and it is hard to look away, I there for have not played any games where they really have nudity or the like. Pray for me, for almost ever male has to fight this evil some time, and it is so hard to do it, but, hey its me!!! With Gods help I can do anything. So those are my thoughts and whoever said it, you were right about letting in a little bit of gore, and acepting it and letting more in. For I used to talk about how bad D1 was and the like, and then I borrowed it and beat it, and, look where I have fallen, even if it is not bad, I HAVE indeesd fallen and a good friend of mine pointed that out to me. well those are my thought. Daniel Anvild Pyro
dnoyeB Lance Corporal Posts: 66 (2/20/01 10:22 am) Reply	Re: Going Against the FKoC Flow! stop me! Well I believe that if you spend enough time with God and time expanding his kingdom , the rest of the time is yours. I am failing to spend my required time though. Also, I don't have a problem with violence in games. Its just a fake game. But then what of sex in games? Its just a fake game. They must be treated equally, but I still dont. A pornographic game is no more evil than a murderous one. War on the other hand is not evil in itself. There were many wars fought in the Bible. Thus, waring is not an evil thing. Waring against the forces of evil is not an evil thing either. "Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes 9:16

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Feeling Like Sticking My Neck Out

Good Point

Hmmm, that is good