Jean Bottero Study Group
Here on the east coast we are now seventeen minutes into the new year and I would like to start the new year off by helping to get us started on some collaborative study work on Religion in Ancient Mesopotamia by Jean Bottero. Yes!! We're rolling into 2002!!
I'm really looking forward to this as I find group study very grounding and centering. I'm a very social creature and I find that I am best at sticking to something when I'm involved in the activity with a group. A good example: in 2000 (I can't say "last year" anymore!) I was in a Weight Watchers group at work. At my most recent physician's visit in December '99 I had tipped the scales over 200 lbs (91 kilos) and was aghast!! I HAD to do something!!
Then, it turned out that in the following January we formed a Weight Watchers group at work. Sixteen of us joined and over the next several months our numbers would decrease, then grow a little, etc. But, I stuck with the program and, in fact, became the lead loser Thus, by the end of October I had lost nearly 50 pounds (22.7K) and was looking great!! I attribute a lot of my success to the fact that I was going through the program with others and throughout each week we would see each other in the halls and at lunch and share stories about how each of us was doing.
So, I look forward to having a circle of our august group virtually gathering together to discuss this work by a highly esteemed scholar. May we grow in knowledge, insight and wisdom and spirit through our work together.
So may it be!
Melissa / Shamhat
p.s. And I hope our dear listmistress has had a delightful, restful and smashing time at the coast!
In a taunt is its taunt; in a curse is its curse, (such is) the constant renewal of destiny. Sumerian Proverb
And Bottero begins by looking at the meta and macro aspects of religion before beginning our examination of Meso religion in particular. For, as in any good thesis, we begin with the definitions of terms and concepts which will be fundamental to our understanding of the whole and for having an agreed upon framework upon which to build everything... the master begins to build her house! (although in this case it is 'his', but we need to envision all possibilities!) (Melissa winks at Lish and all her other sisters )
Unfortunately, at this late hour I don't have time to go through all my notes from chapter one, but I do have some necessarily brief personal observations to make which I am sure will provide food for further discussion:
1. Bottero's view of religion, vis a vis Mesopotamian religion, is made from an historical standpoint as that is his field ( metier as he would say it!). However, as a contemporary woman I can't help but read things and also comment on how they apply or don't apply in today's society. For example, Bottero states that "religion is social". However, in contemporary Pagan practice, we see a fairly widespread movement of "solitary" practitioners. Sometimes these people are not aware of others who share their beliefs/practices and for many years think that 'they are the only one' who feels this way.
2. Religion is posited as something that creates in people a moth and flame (my emphasis) effect in that adherents are "attracted to but also fearful of" that which they worship. In my opinion, this seems to be very informed by Judao/Christian/Islamic monotheism ... I'm not aware of elements of fear in eastern religions like Buddhism or Confucianism.
3. The feminist in me chaffed a bit at the notion that a 'historical religion' could only be inspired or motivated by a " he." Obviously, our historical lens is only 5000 or so years old, approximately the age of the patriarchal age as we know it. (and yes, I am aware of all the controversies over the "myth of matriarchy," i.e. the idea that contemporary pagan notions of a non-patriarchal religious past are not based on any firm historical evidence).
4. Bottero states that "because of the way they are constituted, historical religions could not exist without a strict and everlasting tie to [their] written documents, which reveal the thoughts of thir founders." ... in many ways, we today are the reformers and motivators for our religious life. Who knows what effect our efforts here in this age will have on future lovers of the Mesopotamian path 4000 years from now!!
... so much to say.... so little time.... I have much more to share on this first chapter, but I also have to see to the needs of my body which says it's time to go to sleep!
... To be continued!!
Melissa / Shamhat
In a taunt is its taunt; in a curse is its curse, (such is) the constant renewal of destiny. Sumerian Proverb
Well, French virtuosism apart (very well covered by Melissa, and thanks a million for this!*cyberkiss blown to you), what interests and intrigues me most in this chapter is what Bottéro calls "religious sentiment", "which colors, permeates and defines a given religion". I will spare the chauvinist expressions of religion of fear and mystical religion which Professor Bottéro seems to emphasize looooooots... but not exactly define religion in its essence the way most of us probably would here... even taking the historical context to the letter...
Do you agree that contemplation of Nature as the Inneffable is something that is created in us to clarify the supernatural? I love the phrase quoted by Bottéro from Aristotle that "it is in our nature always to seek to know". But I tend to disagree that religion is fantasy. Religion, from its latin root religio, means to link. To link with what? With Nature at its deepest level, perhaps, can be one of its explanations, the metaphors people have created and made use of to explain their awe and feelings of wonder and elation towards the realities around them, and the pull of the Spirit singing in their souls.
As such, religion can be said to be a representation of all possible realities, providing a foundation that is accepted by society to represent a common and shared golden past that holds power and validity for the present and future generations.
On a personal note, I like think of a before of all befores, where all humans lived in a sort of unformed state of consciousness about the world they lived in. Then, at a certain point which is impossible to precise when it started, "because this moment is lost in the deep night of prehistory or in the inpenetrable fog of parahistory" of which we have no accounts or documents to orient ourselves... I agree therefore that in such earlier times, religion is a reflection of the culture and values out of which it developed. However, I don´t see these moments as total darkness... perhaps the vision of Nanna the Moon can provide us a signpost: before Nanna the Moon, time could not be counted. Thus, only the powers and Nature, humnakind existed, but humnas could not discern what time was.
What gives authority then to a religion is continuity, something that is passed on from generation to generation because it mirrors the deepest aspirations of the collective. Yes, I agree with this in degree, gender and number. The passage of time concedes validity to a corpus that is followed by the people, because it resonates in the core of their souls. This point is very important to us here and now. Or how come we chose Mesopotamia as our path instead of others? I can only speak for myself, but when I started my own spiritual quest, I was looking for a religion that celebrated life and in which the power between the sexes was more balanced. Getting to know that humankind were created to be partners with the gods in the workings of existence resonated deep inside me. Experiencing a mythology where goddesses are gutsy and go to the underworld and to the heights above to get their lovers back made incredible sense to me. This pointed out to me to a society, culture and worldview where there was more balance, although not as yet the equality that we have to make be here and now and pass it on for the generations to come.
My experience of worshipping the Divine is based on a feeling that is rooted in the core of my being, a feeling of deep connection with nature, represented in the gods or forces of nature, which are more powerful than us, human beings, but part of nature themselves too. Thus, I don´t necessarily agree that Mesopotamian religion was based on a centrifugal feeling of fear. Awe, admiration, yes. The society of supernatural beings provided a model for human society. And its values were considered strong enough to withstand the test of time.
What really matters to me in this chapter is that somehow the flame that ignited the spirit of our soul ancestors inflames our hearts as well. Adapa in the introduction to his excellent website, the Twin Rivers Rising, said that Mesopotamians loved technology and were mystical as much as practical people. These truths still resonate in my soul.
Finally for this morning, one of my fave quotes is by Simone de Beauvoir, and says that "life is always busy evolving itself and transforming itself. When all that life does is to preserve itself, than living is only not dying."
Religion gives a body of metaphors and values for us to live life as an adventure in self-transcendence. This is why it links us with all realms of existence, and if polytheist, cannot be orthodox or lead to conformity.
Yesterday I got a message asking how come Tiamat was a dragoness as well? She, who was the Limitless, became the vision of the Unformed Chaos later. But we all come from an Unformed Chaos, where all matter and energy has its origin... or not...
This is one of the possible answers to this question... Like it lots though.
best,
Lishtar
From the Depths and To the Heights to share in all spheres
Re: Chapter One
A couple of triggers for today... which you don´t need to answer at all... just to muse about on your own!
1. Have you ever been.... religious????
hmm... my two cents: I considered myself imaginative and creative, not religious or mystical In fact, the idea of being a reverend and nun-like person or errrrrrr.... a guru who hated baths and ... was not veeeeeery much into sex (these days I say love) made me freeze...
remember that I was a convent girl... and was always battling the nuns ... who couldn´t do a thing because I had high grades...
Thus, when I started officially in Magick it was a soul-homecoming to me. I found out that I am deeply religious and that it is fun and coloured with lots of imagination and wit...
2. Are you orthodox about your faith?
I am centered on Mesopotamia, but... for my sister, when she loses stuff in the office... I invoke Saint Anthony, who is the lost and found officer in the Catholic pantheon
All god/desses are one god/dess? Or One is a facet of the Many and the Many a myriad of reflections of the One?
3. Is fear the same as to be awed and speechless front the Divine?
back to spreadsheets,
Lishtar
From the Depths and To the Heights to share in all spheres
Re: Chapter One
I must confess that I like very much the last paragraph of the first chapter, where Professor Bottéro says that Mesopotamian religion was made of respect and servility with regard to the divine first and foremost. I don´t relate very well with religion in ancient Mesopotamia being permeated by a feeling of fear towards the gods. I guess awe and admiration are better, but would add that fear could be a component for some.
Secondly, the divine was portrayed on the human level, or religion in ancient Mesopotamia was anthropomorphic. Thirdly, religion encompassed a myriad of of supernatural beings, or it was a polytheist religion.
Finally, it was an ancient religion, which evolved with time depending on the events that impacted society. However, most of all, it was not a dogmatic or orthodox religion in its
practice.
Quite nice, isn´t it?
best,
Lishtar
From the Depths and To the Heights to share in all spheres
Re: Chapter One
Do you agree that contemplation of Nature as the Inneffable is something that is created in us to clarify the supernatural?
Hmmm... thinking about your question, and Bottero's somewhat (in my opinion) atheist leaning assertion that "Everything we propose about it and its demands is pure conjecture and the creation of our imagination[emphasis mine] and derives from that curiosity and imaginativeness alone...." So, it would seem that Bottero believes that all religions are purely creations of the human imagination and that (by way of inference) that "deity" and "the supernatural" are also only fictions of our mind.
Of course, I strenuously disagree with this. Your follow-up post on 'trigger questions' applies well here. In looking back over my life I see that I have always been in search of connection with divine, i.e. that I have been religious. For a number of years that search led me to the charismatic christian faith - until it no longer fit my view of reality and the world as I saw it. I had outgrown it and couldn't fit into its narrow prescribed box. Discovering the goddess, wicca, and magick was a homecoming for me as it finally provided me with a sense of self-empowerment and (but also) personal responsibility, much more so than in the traditional monotheistic religions. That's what I see as the major difference between the big three religions and being a priestess - we are ultimately responsibility for our power and control.
Although, as we have also been discussing, there is also the letting go that also occurs when going through underworld journey experiences, those 'dark nights of the soul.'
For me graduate school was the means by which I learned to see and understand the world beyond the narrow limits of the religion I had been in for the past 12 years. It gave me wings to fly and wisdom to look behind the facade to understand both what is said and what is not said. It taught me to question my assumptions and to question everything!! And this is what I see among others like us. We tend to be more well-read and knowledgeable, we don't accept what we are told without thinking. We can no longer live through 'blind faith' alone. Graduate school taught me to be a radical!
...hmmmm... giggle... and yes, thinking about another of your trigger questions ... I, too, have always been creative throughout my life. It is an extremely strong and driving force in my life!! When I don't create (usually art) for some period of time, my partner notices in that I tend to become more easily upset, or am more easily unnerved. "You need to do some art!" is what I will usually hear
And yes, I do agree with Aristotle's statement. The desire to learn and the pursuit of knowledge is one of many traits that distinguishes us as human.
Orthodox about my faith... hmmm... by no means! Bottero talks about orthodoxy and orthopraxy, the idea that there is only one way to believe and only one way to practice a given religion. Any religion that embraces chaos and change by its very nature will not likely have any hint of orthodoxy. You've no doubt heard the oft said phrase, 'two pagans = three opinions'.
Yes! -> "All god/desses are one god/dess? Or One is a facet of the Many and the Many a myriad of reflections of the One?" It's sort of like saying that the divine is like the 'thousand petaled lotus flower' ... there are so many parts & pieces to it, just as there are so many facets to a gem, that it is impossible for us to look at all of it at the same time. We only have a view of the part. And as soon as we shift our gaze to a different part, that part we formerly saw is now obscured. ... makes me think of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle!
3. Is fear the same as to be awed and speechless front the Divine?
Well... the whole concept of being in 'fear before god' is one promulgated primarily through Judeao/Christian theology and imprecise translations by those who wrote the King James bible. This is another example of where I think Bottero's thought is heavily colored through the lens of western religious culture. Awe, inspiration, admiration, speechlessness or lacking in words, the feeling that divine is so vastly larger than our comprehension ... those are emotions I relate to more readily in terms of reaction towards the gods.
Ok... I've rambled all over the place here! *giggle* that's so unlike me ... not! However, that's also how I think... bringing in a myriad of ideas and thoughts, going off on tangents of some, but also finding connections where they were unsought for!
That looks good for now!
Melissa / Shamhat
In a taunt is its taunt; in a curse is its curse, (such is) the constant renewal of destiny. Sumerian Proverb
Re: Chapter One
Great post again! Incredibly proud of you... what a great priestess you are becoming! *cyberhugs
Professor Bottéro is great but oh gods, he gets too post-Meso for my taste sometimes!
Now, you mentioned important issues in your first post which I would like to raise briefly now... In fact, this is the second time I post ... sighs Got disconnected and a longie got lost... snif snif
In terms of our religious practice, I guess as pioneer soul Mesos in the 21st century we are retrieving a bit of the glory that was Mesopotamia in response to our own soul calling. Thus, we don´t have a culture around us to back us up, but we do have a personal heartfelt soul calling to Mesopotamia. The importance of what we do at a personal level resonates with the times we are living here and now though.
How so? Take hard-core feminist (with great hearts!) like Melissa and myself. Two major healings are already taking place that resonate deep in our souls: modern scholarship has reduced to rubbles the false idea that ours was a civilization of vice and depravity and we are retrieving the true light of the strong feminine, here and now, based on the images that we had in Mesopotamia. Inanna/Ishtar is being shown in Her true light from the sources, Enki/Ea is not a trickster god, Ereshkigal is strong, has immense authority and there is passion in the Underworld... for starters. Indirectly, we are redeeming the image of our civilization of the soul. This was not possible let´s say in the beginning of the 20th century.
The second healing is more subtle, but has acquired more depth after the events of September 11th 2001. Ours was a secular, technology-oriented and religious society without orthodoxy. We were the opposite of what angry bearded ugglies showed us on that fateful day. remember that Ninlil did not hesitate to send Enlil to the underworld. Inanna was raped by Shukaletuda ... and went after him! Who was duly made accountable for his acts.
I am very proud we are 28 committed people to the Mesopotamian path. I am delighted we can discuss works such as the one we are doing now. We are not many, but ... numbers do necessarily mean quality. Gateways is a living proof that two people can cast the circle for more than 100,000. I know we have quality here... Your gifts. I am talking about you all here...
In Drawing Down the Moon, by Margot Adler, she says that we don´t actually know much of the Mysteries of the past and will probably never know them in their entirety. It is up to us to recreate the magick and the mysteries... today. I love this statement of hers.
After Bottéro, we do the cultic caledar and the Assyrian Kabbalah... and and and... whatever the Spirit muses us to do...
cyberhugging you all,
Lishtar
From the Depths and To the Heights to share in all spheres
I'm going to first post the notes I took after reading the chapter and then examine in greater detail the posts already made, as I wish for what I have written to be delivered unbiased!
So here we go!
******
What Chapter One really made me think about was not just "religion" as it was defined in the distant past and more recently...but how we Modern Pagans define ourselves.
I have, in Socratic style, based my own thoughts of presupposing Dr. Bottero's work to be the "truth" ie the basis of the arguement. Be patient with me as I've just begun my study in logic and I'm even less familiar with essay writing (which will be remedied soon as I'm going back to school soon, but that's a different topic)
Bottero states, basically, that Religion is a way in which humans seek to approach the divine, whether or not it is imagined or fact seems to be irrelevant in his position.
He would define Mesopotamian religion as a "pre-historically" or "primitively" founded religion because of it's lack of dogmas, centralized texts and the lack of orthodoxy and orthopraxy.
He defines modern religions as "historic" because they developed centralized dogmas & orthodoxy out of the old ways, and defined *themselves* through writing...which as we know was not so in ancient times, as the ancients do not seem to have a name for their individual religions. (Possibly because there was no essential difference between religion in Mesopotamia and that in the Mediterranean for example...all religions at that time acknowledged one thing...a belief in the gods and the forces of nature.)
Supposing Bottero's definitions to be true, I wondered about the definition of modern paganism.
In some ways it can be said that modern paganism is "historic" and not "pre-historic" because it is a re-interpretation of the old ways *within* the unavoidable context of the other "historic" religions we all grew up with, Christianity, Judaism and Islam.
Modern paganism cannot call itself "pre-historic" by Botteros terms, because it is clear that regardless of it's good intentions and it's willingness to identify itself with early practice...it is in fact governed by principles of modern thought and philosophy.
We are not reconstructionists, though we try. Within us are too many cultural and moral imperatives to allow that.
We no longer believe in slavery, a practice our soul ancestors didn't question at all.
We believe in the equality of the sexes, which, though Mesopotamian ladies received better treatment than other cultures, to be sure, it was nowhere near the freedom we modern, western women enjoy today.
Science has a completely unavoidable effect on our religious perceptions. We do not think of an Earthquake as an act of the Gods by intuition. We say "plate tectonics" instead, and it is only the willing superimposition of divine intervention that we purposely adhere to that would ever cause us to equate a scientifically understood natural event with a movement of a God.
None of these ways of thinking are bad, but they are a fact. We live in the world we live in and our experiences both religious and mundane are too different from the ancients to truly call our beliefs "prehistoric".
However, because Modern Pagans are so willing to explore the inner self and try to go beyond the words of the writings from all religions, ancient and modern, because Modern Pagans attempt to commune with Nature on a level that *intends* to address the essentials of spirituality, it can possibly be said that we are of a *third* variety of religion, which for the moment I'll call "futuristic".
Modern pagans do seek, on one level, the old, decentralized nature of faith, that which is dependant on the seasons and other natural phenomenon, and without a common dogma to restrain the spiritual senses.
Yet, we also yearn for centralization and organization, for community agreement on religious thought with those we see as our peers.
"And if it harm none" is the golden rule of many neo-pagan faiths, a collectivist ideology that has nothing to do with the ideas of the ancients, who had war gods and believed in revenge and justice.
We modern pagans join discussion groups (like this one!!!) we form magickal study groups, covens and so forth, and in an almost ironcic way, end up much of the time with a stricture of dogma and orthodoxy despite our best efforts to avoid it because we are *culturally* motivated to do so. Everyone has seen the effects of "witch wars".
We strive to be recognized by our governments and to be described as a "religion" by others in our society even though we claim not to want any structure.
So what are we doing here?
Our desire to be individually religious drives us away from reconstructionism, as most people in ancient times were not priests (just like today), and though they had individual gods and goddesses, self examination was not as highly prized as it is among us today. An average person just accepted what they were told and got on with the business of trying to survive, which wasn't always an easy prospect as we all know!
Our desire to be individually religious also drives us away from establishing permanent religious centers, which are absolutely necessarry for a religion to survive and thrive, and which are historically relevant because our soul ancestors had them.
So what kind of religion are we, and will it last?
Within the established parameters of what we are working with culturally and within our societys and due to the nature of modern paganism, it seems we will continue to survive only in scattered, small groups and will probably have little effect on the world as a whole.
The only thing it seems that we can hope to accomplish outside of enriching our own lives (which is, by the way, I believe, enough), that our presence will somehow encourage the "popular" or "normal" religions to become more tolerant and accepting of other faiths.
After all, in a world where we are so readily able to communicate and so able to destroy ourselves, it seems more important than ever for humanity to accept, if not understand our differences.
These thoughts are what came into my head after reading chapter one, I hope they are not too boring to read!
Re: Chapter One
Your thoughts are NOT at all boring, Kiri! In fact, it is brilliant that we compare our Modern Meso practices in the light of Assyriology and examine what we do in terms of the wider picture...
I will get back to your post in more detail later today.
hmmm... once we invited George Hart to do a talk for us in Talking Stick. Dr. Hart is an Egyptologist at the British Museum and affirmed the "cult of Isis had disappeared" way back ... Surely Dr. Hart did not know that his host that evening in Talking Stick was/is the Chief Priest of Isis in the Fellowship of Isis in London, Steve Wilson.
There was a sea of educated smiles in the audience.
We all kept the heartfire of Isis of 10,000 Names alight... but it was perhaps not the appropriate moment to enlighten our illustrious guest on these particulars...
Great post, Kiri!
Love light and laughter,
Lishtar
From the Depths and To the Heights to share in all spheres
Thanks for your reply! I've been looking forward to having you jump into the discussion.
First and foremost, we are all seekers of knowledge and scholars on one level or another. Some of us are also teachers. We respect the right of anyone to share her/his views as we proceed. Therefore, please know, dear sister, that we will never disparage anything you write!! Nothing you write will be boring!! We are all too precious to do that!! I am also a firm believer in the statement that "there are NO stupid questions." All of us have bits and pieces of inner wisdom to share and enlighten each other, and by doing such we all grow!
As you read my previous postings you will see that I, too, made connections between "religion" and myself as a modern pagan. An amusing observation is about a phrase that I learned by way of my partner and/or someone else, I don't remember the source. However, you may know that it has been said that Christians are called "people of the book," especially by Muslims. This person commented that we modern pagans/meso lovers/witches, etc tend to be "people of many books!! So, rather than having one central text that informs our beliefs we have a multiplicity of texts. Modern pagans tend to be some of the most well-read, intelligent and informed people around!
In terms of orthodoxy and orthopraxy, I see tendencies within different groups towards these extremes, but they tend to be the exception rather than the rule. This reminds me of the bibliographic essay my partner & sweetie wrote for an academic library journal a couple years ago on contemporary wicca. Her title was: Contemporary Wicca: Formalists, Feminists and Free-Spirits. I think that sums things up well! However, I would also state that all of us at one time or another likely go through our own "fundamentalist" stage A bumper sticker sold by friends who own a bookstore (and are in the broomcloset) is informative: Fundamentalists are all the same, whether they follow Jesus or the Goddess.
Oh... and I believe very strongly that we can simultaneously embrace both modern science and see natural events as acts of the divine (don't forget chaos theory and/or chaos magick!! )
As far as our effect on the future or on the world, that's of secondary importance to me. Of course we know that our religious beliefs generally follow a non-proselytizing focus. We're not seeking to gain new adherents or followers; and if it happens, good! However, in my opinion, the most important goal of our spiritual work is to improve ourselves. "Know Thyself" is a major Fellowship of Isis principle and an important guide for our inner work.
I think this is a good follow-up to Lish's posting!
Melissa / Shamhat
In a taunt is its taunt; in a curse is its curse, (such is) the constant renewal of destiny. Sumerian Proverb
It's nice to be in a forum where ideas are freely exchanged and not ridiculed for a change.
It will be interesting, with all of our different backgrounds, to see what develops with the rest of the book.
Lishtar is a very demanding scholar, if you haven't noticed, for the good of all!
I recall her extreme impatience with people on the Bab Magick list who do not know their history. (Not that she was ever, ever rude, not at all, but I can tell impatience because I've known her so long.)
After all if all one knows about Paganism is what has been published by Llewellyn Press, then one's education is sadly suffering. lol
I'm hoping our journey can improve ourselves, oh yes, but I do sincerely hope we can improve the world as well.
I suppose one shall naturally follow the other.
Are we going to get any postings from anyone else on the board?
Love and light and also lots of chocolate...the detrius of the Holiday season...(really have some there is too much!!!)
I am truly delighted with the insights we are sharing, especially regarding our Modern Meso and Pagan practices. Now, because I can´t help being bookish (again), please have a look at an outstanding history book on Modern Paganism by Professor Ronald Hutton, who is pagan and one of the leading British historians of the middle ages... He was the one I tested my playlet The Healing of Gilgamesh on.... and blush blush he loved it!
The book is called The Triumph of the Moon - a History of Modern Pagan Witchcraft, by Ronald Hutton and published by the Oxford University Press in 2000. Many of the points raised here about how we worship, etc. are brilliantly discussed there. One of my coming purchases is Religion Without Beliefs by Fred Lamond, an elder of the Pagan Federation UK, who also attended my first Inanna lecture. And enjoyed it!!! I bought The Triumph... in Barnes and Noble, New York City, but Religion without Beliefs can only be found in the UK, I guess.
The third book is by Barbara G. Walker and it is called Restoring the Goddess. It is more feminist-oriented. Very good as well.
I read everything I can get hold of on historical paganism. Nigel Pennick also wrote a book on Paganism in Europe, which did not cover Mesopotamia. I have it in my library, but must confess I did not read it as yet.
I guess when I made the decision to be a Pagan, I wanted to know what it meant. I guess it is a responsibility we all have to account for when we are asked by others questions on why, what and how we worship and do in our religious practice.
I confess I was always a bit impatient in the BabMagick list because I felt deeply that the attitude was missing out. We had discussions on Sitchin here, for example, and all was done in very high standard. Indeed, although I don´t like Sitchin when we touch the coming of the Sumerians to Mesopotamia in the following chapter, we could have asides on how the Sumerians might have come from outer space perhaps?
I am strict about the attitude of worship, the religious feeling of respect and love for the religion of our choice. And being very busy, I don´t hesitate to send people to their local university library, Assyriology section for the obvious questions as well!!! Gateways has replied to so many of these questions but somehow people in BabMagick list never did care to have a look in the site... Not that I want praise... but they could have done a better homework beforehand!!!
hm... as I am extremely simple, I just mean that the gods deserve only the very best... How can we ever fail our spiritual calling?
I hope others follow our posts... let me just say that the thread has been so good that we may errrrrr... have made our cybercircle silent... Besides, hmm... we are quite pagan the three of us...
Hope we haven´t scared off anyone!!! Or have we????
Kiri, do you know that I waited for a girl in the BabMagick list that never turned up???? In front of Barnes and Noble, me carrying a bouquet of flowers and a pic of my goddess for her? Two years ago? I am normal. I am ethical. I look normal. Just wanted to meet the girl... and she kept giving me excuses not to show up... aaaaaargh
I may have given up BabMagick list at that time, but will never give up Everlasting Mesopotamia. So will continue posting there... eventually for the good questions.
You and Daryl are here. Jeffrey too. May the gods bless the BabMagick list and may they learn a bit about Perfect Love and Perfect Trust... something soooooo natural over here...
Now, dearest Gateways2Bab board members, can we hear from you as well????? *hands on waist... there is a virtual lioness purring on my feet...
Post now!
*giggles
Lish
From the Depths and To the Heights to share in all spheres
Re: Chapter One
Let´s see what Professor Hutton says about how the Pagan Federation-UK define paganism:
1) acceptance of the inherent divinity of the natural world and a natural rejection of any notion of the creation of that world by a power outside itself. Such acceptance is immediately recognized to take a range of possible forms, from the animist belief that the cosmos is empowered by an apparently infinite number of spirit forms to that form of monotheism which suggests that the planet is the living body of a single divine entity;
2) rejection of any concept of a divinely prescribed law for human behaviour and therefore of the concept of sin and salvation. There is an ethic of freedom to express and gratify individual needs and desires, to pursue personal growth and happiness with the single limitation of not causing harm to others;
3) divinity can be both male and female.
And Professor Hutton adds to these criteria his own findings. Yes, he is absolutely brilliant!
a) paganism aims at drawing out and enhancing the divinity within human beings;
b) it abolishes all difference between religion and magick;
c) it is a mystery religion or a set of mystery religions (I would add the personal component, which is sooooo Mesopotamian... but hardly anyone knows how much because they don´t know us);
d) its essencie lies in the performance of ritual, which I would call the Craft of Life in all spheres of one´s life.
This all makes of paganism striking, intense, the fulfilment of one´s religiosity that is based on the yearning for integration iwith the divine, with the rest of the cosmos, and with oneself.
pages 300 and 301.
There is much more. The book is huuuuuuuge. He talks about tradition and mirth in the circles, that circles alternate reverence and laughter in rituals... Consecration and play...
Now, I never saw ritual nudity the groups I was a member of preferred high regalia I myself luv my robe, which is a black tigh-fitting long dress with slightly flowing skirt and ... one size larger... hmm... A priestess of Inanna is supposed to look elegant and not overtly sexy...
Professor Hutton is pagan and I saw him say the words of Isis by Apuleius in a conference. He kissed the hand of the priestess of Isis at the end of his flawless exposition.
Tanya Luhrman´s Persuasions of the Witches´Craft is also good, but an earlier work. I didn´t read Graham Hancock´s work on paganism. Prefer the virtuosism of Professor Hutton.
Great taster, isn´t it? I guess this was a necessary post to ensure that pagans are quite normal With spice.
Love light and laughter,
Lishtar
From the Depths and To the Heights to share in all spheres
Re: Chapter One
Thanks for the reference suggestions, Lish. I checked our home library and we do have the Ronald Hutton work, so I'll have to borrow it from my sweetie. She amassed a ton of books when she was doing her bibliographic essay. Plus, she is a book reviewer for an Academic Librarians' journal, and her reviews often include works on Paganism, Goddesses, Wicca and other religious issues.
I'm also checking for some of the other resources you mentioned in your email to me. The Vivianne Crowley is the one that most interests me, naturally!
It looks as if we're about ready to move on to chapter 2. Any final observations on the first chapter? We do want to make sure any who wish to participate in the discussion don't feel left behind!
My last comment on Chapter 1 is from a short side comment Bottero makes, "each religion ... is ultimately only a reflection of the culture out of which it developed ...." When I was doing my graduate school work I took an anthropology course that focused on how the ecosystem and landscape affects a culture's lifestyle and belief system. One example often given is how the ascetism of Islam seems to perfectly fit the arid, harsh landscape of the Arabian peninsula where it developed. In the early pantheon of Sumeria we see how the various gods correlate with the physical landscape features of lower Mesopotamia: reed goddesses, Kur=mountain=the underworld, lots of gods relating to the water, Dumuzi and growth and vegetation and how the coming of summer correlates with his annual descent to the underworld, etc.
Something to think about!
Melissa / Shamhat
p.s. Oh yes, we are a spicy, high-spirited and energized group!!
In a taunt is its taunt; in a curse is its curse, (such is) the constant renewal of destiny. Sumerian Proverb
Re: Chapter One
Yeah, we are quite ready to move on to the historically oriented Chapter 2!!!! Thanks a million for the brilliant posts on Chapter 1, all of them! Isn´t it great to spiral in and out in the same context?
My last observation has to do with anthropomorphism. All great scholars, and I am talking about Professor Bottéro, Professor Lambert and modern Assyriologists, tend not to agree with the ideas of Jacobsen in The Treasures of the Darkness that the Gods were also representations of the phenomena of nature. In other words, they all think that the gods have always been human in aspect in Mesopotamia, but I don´t have problems with the fact that They can also be embodied in the natural phenomena around us.
Melissa, great you got a free copy of The triumph of the Moon. There is an excellent chapter on American Witchcraft in it. A Woman´s Kabbalah is a gentle introduction on the Kabbalah. Her writings on Kether are excellent. But Vivianne Crowley never mentioned anything Mesopotamian. A fact that is soooooo very common... but we do know better!
Anyone who is familiar with Sitchin, heads up! We will be talking about how the Sumerians came to Mesopotamia next chapter... I don´t remember my readings on the 12th Planet any longer... I do remember Inanna´s tube experience still *laughs (full story of Inanna´s Descent to errrr... the Underground somewhere in our board... our threads are so many that I can´t even remember where this is by now... brilliant!)
We got a message last year saying that our brilliant BookSection did not contain any book by Sitchin ... hmmm... I am very busy. Guess if I even bothered to reply to this one..
By the way, the Booksection of Gateways is very difficult to design. Frank scanned the covers of the books we had access to the covers of, made them fit in into neat spaces in the table. He is a master webdesigner
I guess we can start Chapter 2 Monday. And live the Discipline of Joy and the Pursuit of Pleasure, Love, Light and Laughter for this weekend...
cyberhugs,
Lishtar
From the Depths and To the Heights to share in all spheres
Re: Jean Bottero Study Group
We move on to wonderful historically-oriented Chapter 2. It always amazes me the way the masters of their craft make the obvious sound like storytelling, like ebb and flow... I guess what they do is to connect with the source of their experience and thus their writing is easy to read and enjoy. Perhaps the feeling can be better understood as what we feel when we hear an old favourite song. We connect. We sing along....
oh, I guess we can always backtrack any time here. If any of you have something to say about previous posts, by all means, do so!
Keep uniting our computers by beams of light when you login to post. Statistics show that we have more than 12.000+ hits since March 2001, when we started officially to post here for 800+ posts. Quite a lot of ... lurkers come to see what we do... visibly here!!!
hmm... but we are not that open... however, the magicks we weave all of us in the circle... unbroken! *cyberhugs
More later... have to go to work!
snif Am late already...
best,
Lishtar
From the Depths and To the Heights to share in all spheres
Chapter Two
I will read chapter two either this evening or tomorrow evening and will post after that.
This is great!
You know, Lish, you should suggest short rituals or prayers for us all to do between chapters, to make us open to whatever knowledge the gods want to hand out.
We could all do the rituals in our own homes and comment on our experiences!
Also I'm considering making everyone a "prayer chaplet" like we see in all the Mesopotamian temple artwork...so I need to know how many beads to buy and in order to do that I need names of interested folks and addresses to send to after they are done.
Re: Chapter Two
Kiri, one of the reasons I wanted so badly you to join us is because you are a born ritualist I am more of an espontaneous cheerful mystic... Go on and weave your magicks!
Now, the idea to include personal rituals as we go over doing Bottéro is excellent. I just am a bit intrigued about what most of our cyberboard may feel about it...
But we could certainly share the practices we are all following... I luv to project beams of light stemming from my computer to the 27 others of our group when I connect to Bottéro.
As I have just done right now!
sighs Lots of things to do. I have to update my virus definitions at work but it is taking ages. Don´t know why this computer here ... is such a pain!
And Nina/Ninni is back from Finland Can hardly wait to read her posts too!
Kiri, eager to know the details of the prayer chaplet...
I adore the diversity we bring to the circle. This is one of the factors that make magickal groups outstanding. Daryl knows the strength of the metaphor of a sophisticated dish. This is how I see a magickal group: a yummy and highly sophisticated dish, where all ingredients are important and should be there to release all flavours in harmony.
Love, light and laughter,
Lish
From the Depths and To the Heights to share in all spheres
Chapter 2 - Mesopotamia and its History
I am going to spare you my thoughts on the very initial sentence that starts Professor Bottéro´s overview of Mesopotamian history for now, but would certainly love to hear your thoughts on "if a prehistoric religion such as that of Mesopotamia is in fact only the local culture´s self-extension into the supernatural..." after we get factual here. However, agree totally that "the context of the development and history of that culture and of the world it flourished" is of paramount importance for us to grasp its full meaning. Adapa put it wonderfully in a text I adore, called A call for paganism and scholarship: basically, allow for your mind to establish the connections with the data and facts your heart already has recognized and acknowledged. From knowing to knowledge and vice-versa! Professor Bottéro used an "if" in his sentence though... there is a big "if"... which is not an "if" at all for us, Mesos in the soul!!!!
Professor Bottéro starts by locating us in time and space in terms of geography. Geographically, Mesopotamia covers approximately the area of present-day Irak and not truly an old land. It is surounded by the barrier of the Caucasus in the North, the glacis of the Iranian plateu to the east, the Persian Gulf to the South and the Syro-Arabian desert to the west. Mesopotamia began to emerge only a few millennia after the end of the final European glaciations, ca. 12,000 years ago. The vast expanse of alluvial land was favoured by glaciation, which decreased the level of precipitation and rainfalls, and what had been a single river was uncovered. The much narrower remnants of that river are the Tigris and the Euphrates.
Have to go to work. I did try to post this yesterday but got disconnected and was dead tired to write back. You didn´t think (dor did you????) that I would not try to keep my promise to the gods, ie. I told the gods Chapter 2 would start up yesterday!
As much as I can, I keep my word to Them.
And to you.
best,
Lishtar
PS: Inertia, the first vice of the Kabbalah means to me not to be able to keep one´s promises to the gods. Easier to understand and much simpler.
I tell my gods when I am too busy. They know how busy I am anyway.
A relationship with the divine is a two-way road. They are the natural that is also super in one´s life!
From the Depths and To the Heights to share in all spheres
Re: Chapter 2 - Mesopotamia and its History
The first inhabitants of Mesopotamia gradually revealed themselves in the 6th millennium at the latest, probably coming from the surrounding lands to the northwest, the north and the east, being ethnically and culturally diverse. We know practically nothing about them, and surely not much else about their religious practices. What we do know is that as they come to settle in scattered plots of land, these settlers imported not only their rudimentary tools and ways of life, but also their plants and domesticated animals. Professor Bottéro adds that as time passed, we can imagine these settlers, each group in its own way, plodding along, slowly prgressing and spreading out or disappearing. They surely must have left their imprints on Mesopotamia, which nevertheless we cqnnot retrace at this moment and never probably will be able to.
Changes started occurring only in the 4th millennium. The details of both fundamental changes are inaccessible to us, but both had lasting effects which stay with us in our very present days.
These changes were brought about by 1) the use of land irrigation, and 2) the arrival of the Sumerians, who broght with them also the invention of writing.
Some after-lunch notes from
Lishtar
From the Depths and To the Heights to share in all spheres
Re: Chapter 2 - Mesopotamia and its History
Irrigation was of paramount importance , because there was little precipitation in Mesopotamia (mostly at winter time), and the Tigris and the Euphrates had few weak tributaries. The area was thus devoted to raising sheep and large scale grain crops. Having realized that they could also build dams and channel the waters for irrigating the fields resulted in expansion of successful agriculture, a much better nourished workforce and the appearance of a centralized, energetic and disciplined management that linked countryside to the villages which were being formed. In myth, this stage is described as "the baskets built the cities". As isolated groups started to band together into larger political units, each under an its own chief, we have the first city-states or urban states, or groups of villages that were henceforth associated around and under the orders of a more powerful concentration of strenght, the seat of authority. It was out of that setting that the indestructible monarchic tradition of the land, the creation of cities and high urban culture began to rise.
Good night to you all!
Lishtar
From the Depths and To the Heights to share in all spheres
Yes!! We're rolling into 2002!! 
Thus, by the end of October I had lost nearly 50 pounds (22.7K) and was looking great!! I attribute a lot of my success to the fact that I was going through the program with others and throughout each week we would see each other in the halls and at lunch and share stories about how each of us was doing.
However, that's also how I think... bringing in a myriad of ideas and thoughts, going off on tangents of some, but also finding connections where they were unsought for!
)
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