Alkanoonion 
Thain
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(1/21/04 9:18 pm)
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Lembas
Gayalondiel
Tavern Hostess
Inn Keeper
posted January 05, 2003 03:01 AM
What exactly is lembas?
In the Silmarillion, lembas is found in Beleriand, more specifically in Doriath, and Melian is said to have control over it, and it is an event of great renown when she actually gives some to Men. Now Melian was a Maia, so that suggests that she imparts some of her power into the making of the waybread. But then in LotR, Galadriel of course gives some to the
Fellowship to sustain them.
So, the question is, what goes into lembas that makes it so special? Cram is reputedly nasty and dry stuff, yet much less sustaining than lembas. If only Melian had control of lembas in the First Age, how can Galadriel, a mere Elf, create the same stuff but apparently other Elves cannot. (Of course Galadriel is not just a 'mere' Elf, but then Elrond, for one, does not furnish the company with lembas, nor is any mention made of it in Rivendell). So has Galadriel 'inherited' the control of it, and the recipe? Did Melian have to impart some power to Galadriel to do so, as she did to Thingol when they first met? What do people think?
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~C.S.Lewis
Posts: 258 | From: My own wierd, wierd world | Registered: December 23, 2002
Cami Goodchild
posted January 05, 2003 05:10 AM
Gayalondiel,
According to the Letters, Tolkien says that the figure of Galadriel was modelled on that of the Virgin Mary. He also said that he saw lembas as something akin to the Communion bread, that which is used in the Catholic mass. This was why lembas had such miraculous powers of restoration.
So, if you put these two things together, it makes sense that Galadriel would be the one to give the members of the fellowship lembas.
However, I do think lembas was something which the Elves as a whole used. I don't think it was limited to Galdadriel. Can anyone else help me out on this with examples? The name lembas actually means "journey" (lenn) "bread" (mbass). But you're undoubtedly right in pointing to Melian as the originator of it.
Cami Goodchild
Guided by the Lonely Star,
Beyond the utmost harbour-bar,
I'll find the havens fair and free,
And beaches of the Starlit Sea.
Posts: 2 | From: Houston, Texas, U.S.A. | Registered: January 05, 2003
Cimmerian
The Sentinel!
Chief Magistrate
posted January 05, 2003 09:38 PM
Interesting, Gaya. Lembas indeed are interesting. Any chance of getting the recipe in the cooking section.
Firstly, welcome to Bree, Cami Goodchild. You state a rather intriguing point. Being a roman-catholic myself, I sort of see some parallel in what you mention. Indeed, Galadriel does resemble the Virgin Mary, though in visage and image only.
It makes me wonder, though nowhere it is mentioned that the bread of communion, ie, the body of chirst gives the partaker any restorative effects physically, but spiritually it is so. Would you consider that JRRT may have also been making a reference to 'Mana' or 'Manna', the bread from heaven which sustained the faithful followers of Moses during the great Exodus from Egypt. Mana did revitalize the people in mind, body and spirit.
[This message was edited by Cimmerian on January 06, 2003 at 01:29 AM.]
Posts: 1265 | From: Grim Grey Mountains, The Frozen North | Registered: December 12, 2002
Gayalondiel
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posted January 06, 2003 05:50 AM
Interesting thought, Cimm. Manna hadn't occurred to me but of course it is the sustaining food of the Israelites when they had run out of what they carried, as is true of the Fellowship (particularly Sam and Frodo). You could stretch that to far more tenuous links as well, of course, and point out that Manna came to the Israelites in the midst of their journey from an unexpected source. While Aragorn and Gandalf certainly expected help from Lorien, the same cannot be said for certain of the rest of the Fellowship. Mind you, that is stretching the analogy a little too thin, I think.
________________________
Not another ****ing Elf!
~C.S.Lewis
Posts: 258 | From: My own wierd, wierd world | Registered: December 23, 2002
Cimmerian
The Sentinel!
Chief Magistrate
posted January 06, 2003 09:59 PM
It was just a passing reference, in response to Cami's post. I am very uncomfortable when discussing religion, having been force fed so for the earlier part of my life(catholic school for boys), I am rather resentful toward it. Anyway, I also see religious texts are good works of Literature that serve to inspire people, namely writers.
My parents, great followers of works of fantasy and fiction are somewhat aprehensive about Tolkien's work, due to its theological implications; especially my mother. In fact she refuses to read the book, though she has seen the movie.
I read LOTR as just another work of fantasy fiction, as good as any I have read so far.
Posts: 1265 | From: Grim Grey Mountains, The Frozen North | Registered: December 12, 2002
Gayalondiel
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posted January 11, 2003 07:00 AM
Theological implications? while (as I understand it) Tolkien was very deeply involved in the Catholic faith, I don't think that LotR is intended to represent that faith, certainly not the way C.S.Lewis' chronicles of Narnia are essentially an allegory of the Anglican faith.
I didn't intend to suggest that he intended lembas to be read as manna, nor that all the tenuous links i found were implicitly there in his mind, but rather that one could read it that way.
________________________
Not another ****ing Elf!
~C.S.Lewis
Posts: 258 | From: My own wierd, wierd world | Registered: December 23, 2002
Cimmerian
The Sentinel!
Chief Magistrate
posted January 12, 2003 11:38 PM
Well, I'm not clear on where and how my parents see such, to me LOTR is a great adventure tale and I do not intend to further immerse myself into the history, religion and cultures Tolkien offers in the Silmarillon and other stuff he wrote. As the man himself says, I am among those readers who think of his work as a romantic adventure with the footnotes being unexplained vistas that enhance the tale.
In my view, Lewis' Chronicles is far more of a fairy tale than LOTR, much in the vein of Caroll's Wonderland stories and Blyton's Fairy Tales.
I know you didn't mean to suggest lembas as any source of religious importance, but discussions tend to go many different ways. That makes them interesting and enjoyable to read. We need to welcome all points of view, pro or con and enrich the discussion. When two people agree absolutely on something, then one of them becomes unnecessary.
Lembas sound like a delicious treat, anyone have the recipe to share at the cookbook.
Posts: 1265 | From: Grim Grey Mountains, The Frozen North | Registered: December 12, 2002
Gayalondiel
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Inn Keeper
posted January 13, 2003 05:40 AM
quote:
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In my view, Lewis' Chronicles is far more of a fairy tale than LOTR, much in the vein of Caroll's Wonderland stories and Blyton's Fairy Tales
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I know a lot of people who view Narnia that way, Cimm, but the fact does remain that C.S.Lewis was one of the greatest theological Anglican writers, and he quite explicitly intended the Chronicles as an allegory of the Anglican faith, particularly his own personal beliefs. Having read it in and out of that context, I personally see that idea in it very clearly, despite how well it works without that overview.
________________________
Not another ****ing Elf!
~C.S.Lewis
Posts: 258 | From: My own wierd, wierd world | Registered: December 23, 2002
Sister Bigfoot
The Artist
Shirriff
posted February 16, 2003 08:21 PM
quote:
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According to the Letters, Tolkien says that the figure of Galadriel was modelled on that of the Virgin Mary. He also said that he saw lembas as something akin to the Communion bread
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I certainly would never have thought of Galadriel as being modelled after the Virgin Mary. I can see the connection as both women are icons of purity. But I tend to think of Galadriel as being a strong and in control character. Mary as being less so (she never had any control. God chose her to be the mother of his son. She was not asked. She was told).
Why, if Tolkin modelled Galadriel after Mary, would he allow Galadriel To have control over her fate, when Mary did not?
The lembas as communion bread? Did the elves consider it holy?
Posts: 669 | From: Adelaide Australia | Registered: December 12, 2002
Gayalondiel
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Inn Keeper
posted February 17, 2003 10:47 AM
I don't imagine that Tolkien explicitly thought to himself 'I want a character like the Holy Virgin': as is oft-cited, he hated allegory. But given that he admitted to the revisions being very Catholic in style, one can imagine that he saw the similarities there and developed them (I could be very wrong, please correct me if you know better).
As for her characteristics, independance may not be comparable with the Virgin, but much else is. To a Catholic, as I understand it, Mary is a guide, one who intervenes with God and aims to help us lowly mortal sinners. Some of that rings true about Galadriel, this great Elf-Queen on Middle-earth helping Men and Hobbits.
Incidentally, I would also say that Mary was a very strong character.
quote:
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Then Mary said 'Here am I, the servant of the Lord; let it be with me according to your word.'
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~Luke 1:38
Strong words indeed, for a thirteen year old girl engaged to a thirty year old man, who's just been told by a massive great flaming angel that she's pregnant outside of wedlock (for which she could have been executed by stoning) with the Son of God! Regardless of what you believe, a character in that situation reacting with that calm must be extraordinarily strong in character, faith and mind.
________________________
Not another ****ing Elf!
~C.S.Lewis
Posts: 258 | From: My own wierd, wierd world | Registered: December 23, 2002
Sister Bigfoot
The Artist
Shirriff
posted February 17, 2003 01:47 PM
Good response Gayalondie. We may differ on Mary's character, but I agree with you about the rest.
It bothers but fascinates me when people connect Tolkins work with stories from the Bible. I never seem to make the connections, but can understand how others can.
Gayalondiel, I'd like to hear your opinion on the lambas.
Posts: 669 | From: Adelaide Australia | Registered: December 12, 2002
Cimmerian
The Sentinel!
Chief Magistrate
posted February 17, 2003 10:51 PM
I was reading a article... or was it a documentary on TV... about TOlkien and hiw writers group, and there it was mantioned that these young men of the writers group, which included CSLewis and JRRTolkien, viewed women in general as strong, elegant characters often like goddesses and their work reflected upon such ideals.
Now regarding the Bible, again meaning no offence to anyone, I see it as another work of fantasy, maybe with some fatual significance, but the facts are most obviously diluted by over two millenia of word of mouth and written translastions. It's really hard to believe that all those miracles and amazing feats actually transpired. *Shrugs*
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IN STEEL I TRUST, BY CROM!
Posts: 1265 | From: Grim Grey Mountains, The Frozen North | Registered: December 12, 2002
Gayalondiel
Tavern Hostess
Inn Keeper
posted February 19, 2003 02:01 AM
I wouldn't say 'obviously diluted', Cimm, but each to their own. Anyhow, the issue here isn't whether the Bible is authentic fact or not, so that doesn't really matter. The fact that JRRT took it as such, however, is a point one should bear in mind.
________________________
Not another ****ing Elf!
~C.S.Lewis
Posts: 258 | From: My own wierd, wierd world | Registered: December 23, 2002
Cimmerian
The Sentinel!
Chief Magistrate
posted February 19, 2003 10:50 PM
I only made the bible reference because this discussion is hinged on whether Tolkien was influence by the bible or parts of it and if so, is any of it reflected in his work. Personally, I see the bible as a collection of stories, some fantastical, and nothing more and a lot of people may be influenced to borrow from it in their writing as ther would from writings like Aesop's fables, etc.
As for Lembas, I'd say that it's just Elvish food, like pipeweed is Hobbit's tobacco.
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