Re: Question
oh gods, this question again!
We will do Bottéro first with lots of Jung before we touch the demons thingy here. The work with unbalanced energies require lots of training and I am extremely strict to do this without the required safeguards.
Besides, most of people who touch this subject are into power trips. Bottéro, the Dean of French Assyriology, has just written that the Sumerians DID NOT give to demons the same status they gave to the gods and goddesses.
sighs Enki107, I like you. But you go sometimes too much for the fringe material and not to the real sources.
Example: someone in the BabMagick list asked about an obscure text involving Tantra´s origins in Mesopotamia. The test was written in the 1800s. arrrrrrrgh Get Professor Parpola and read the 200+ lenghty footnotes of his groundbreaking work on the Assyrian Kabbalah, published by the University of Chicago in 1993.
The guy in this mail was obscure and going all Isis-Inanna-Hekate-Astarte magicks. Read the Enuma Elish within the Kabbalist framework outlined by Professor Parpola... and you will have not only Tantra in your hands... From the sources, by perhaps the most original and learned Assyriologist of our times.
hmm... I guess I was... high tech scribe in my reply
This text was a gift from Shemhazi of Babyloniaca to me. My archetypal Young Ritual Magician in the Tradition.
from the extra boring and bookish luver of ancient myth from clay tablets,
Lishtar
PS: Get Phil Hine on demons before you invoke your own.
From the Depths and To the Heights to share in all spheres
Sorry if I upset you...
but I was just asking because I know very little about them and was curious, not because I'm on a "power trip" or anything like that. And yes, I probably do read too much of the fringe material, but I really don't have the time to read and study the subject as I would like. I'm a computer science major, and college takes up most my time, so I seldom get to read anything for enjoyment. And even if i could, I live in a small town, and I don't think the library has many of the books you have mentioned. As far as buying the books myself, well...again, I'm a college student. LOL I have no money!
Anyway, that's why I enjoy your site so much, because it has a lot of detailed information (not one line of info like most sites). Maybe in the future, I'll have time to read and study more thoroughly (I hope), but I'm afraid it's just not possible right now. So please don't be too hard on me if i ask stupid questions. I just started reading on the subject a short time ago, and I realize I know very little so far. However, I am trying to learn so be patient with me. Well, I have to go study for a test (Physics), so I'll talk to you later and have a great week!
where does one find parpola's stuff?
Say Lishtar, where does one find all of Prof Parpola's works? My studies are elsewhere at the moment but the info would be useful in the future.
Re: where does one find parpola's stuff?
Daryl and Enki107, I just saw the posts by both of you today... red faced with shame...
Anyway, Enki107, as I said, I like you!!! This hasn´t changed and I admire your enthusiasm. Instead of buying material, go to your university library, ancient history section. They will have everything you need...
Daryl, I got my first article by Professor Parpola from Shemhazai. The second by Professor Hurovitz and got my Assyrian Prophecies in Helsinki. Helsinki is the center for the States Archives of the Assyria, an excellence project since late 1990s. All due to Professor Parpola´s work. I try to get everything I can by him, and he publishes widely in ANE journals. I guess I posted in the links and in this site at least two references to his material, and Nina has just given us a link on an article written by Prof. Parpola on the Star of Bethelem.
I will have soon two articles by Prof. Parpola in the next update of Gateways. hmmm... need to get my discs organized... now!!!
Sorry for taking so long to reply to you...
cyberhugs,
Lishtar
From the Depths and To the Heights to share in all spheres
Re: Sorry if I upset you...
Dearest Enki 107, it is me who is upset with myself for having overlooked your post... sighs
You are one with us. I love beginnings and beginners. You can and should ask all questions... and I guess it is up to me to draw the line when the subject gets too complicated.
Demons represent unbalanced energies. I don´t see them particularly as negative ones, just that one should be veeeeeery careful when dealing with them.
Example: if I were in Afghanistan in the beginning of the Taleban rule and were caught up in the mountains with a group of women and children, I would not hesitate about calling the Seven Demons of Erra and Ishum for protection of my party against being found by the Uggly Bearded Angries...
The problem is that many people work with dichotomies, good vs evil, day vs night, king vs queen, instead of looking for the centerpoint that all sees and chooses wisely. In actual fact, a theurgist and grown-up magician works with energies for balance and fruition in all levels and spheres. And you work With these energies, as the Power flows through you, in the knowledge that you are not god or goddess, but a co-worker.
Before I tackle demons, I would love to work with composite figurines such as the SnakeDragon of Marduk. Or the Pokemons of the ancient days
This work on composite and protective figurines in Mesopotamia will appear here first and I do have material already on this.
Sorry for taking so long to reply to you. I was a broke student as well. I know how hard it is... but used my university a lot. Aurora Consurgens, a very hard-to-get alchemical treaty, I got via interlibrary loan. And copied it on a disc... which I lost!!! or it is lost in my flat... snif snif
Keep being curious and enthusiastic and luving Meso as all of us,
Lishtar and ... shock horror... you DID NOT upset me!!!!
but I may have upset you and apologize for this. Never meant it...
From the Depths and To the Heights to share in all spheres
You didn't upset me...
but it did kind of make me feel like I needed to defend myself. LOL. Anyway, thanks for replying, but don't worry about being late, this was finals week and I hadn't gotten a chance to check for a reply anyway. Since I'm on Christmas break, I think I will try and go into the library and do at least a little reading/research. That should be fun, especially since I never get to read anything interesting anymore. Anyway, hope everything is going well for you and thanks for replying.
Re: You didn't upset me...
Great I didn´t upset you and wonderful that you stood your own ground I am just extra cautious with errrrrrr... demon callers and ... oh, let me tell you, those who believe in Sumerians from outer space are... ahem... a liiiiiiiiiittle bit better... aaaaaargh
Ancient History sections are great for finding Assyriology stuff. Besides, much cheaper to get books via interlibrary loans.
Enjoy your Xmas/Yule!!! I need to get a dolly for my pet niece still, but from Dec 20th I will NOT go to town...
Until Mother and sister drag me along...
Always promise myself not to go a) to town and b) to supermarket by this time until after Xmas/Yule.
Am always at the door opening the supermarket with ... the luvly Dragonesses sis and mom...
Well, I try...
Enjoy your Xmas break too!
Love, light and laughter,
Lishtar
From the Depths and To the Heights to share in all spheres
If I could follow up on a statement made before the demon subject came up:
"Before Enki, there was Hermes and Odin. Gods be blessed for Them!"
Hermes being from the greek pantheon and Odin from the Norse/Germantic pantheon. Do you really feel that these gods exisited before Enki set up shop in 6000bce? Ishtar, Inana's babylonian counterpart existed in the Norse pantheon, which leads me to believe that there was a disimination of religious ideas from the fertile cresent.
There were wo/men before Ea/EnKi but that is a tangled web of speculation...no I don't mean alien invaders with ray guns but there seems to be a migration of An's desendants into the area from the East (supposedly below the area of the Caspian sea) according to Kramer. The other half of the statement that states that An and Enki came into the area is that they came from somewhere.
The Indus Valley looks very interesting with their standardized bricks for building. This speads eastward, archeologically (the building structure is later in India than it is in the Pakistan/Afganistan area) rather than westward towards the Akkad/Sumer arena. And most of the dates of the Harappa/Mohenjo-daro communities in the Indus Valley are about 3000 bce area.
SnakeDragon of Marduk! I've NEVER heard of this! I have heard of the association of dragon=marduk but the element of snake also in there quite interesting. Elam, in Iran now, was created in 3000bce and basically had the same structure of akkad/Sumer except for one fact. They had a snake worshiping cult there according to a iran history web page.
Now that I've proven to everyone that I can speculate wildly, I'll keep my mouth shut on the demon thingy but must stress that I agree most wholeheartedly that if Lishy was protecting her family and friends from the ugly-bearded-ones (LOL!) that calling upon djinn or demons would be understandable. Can you imagine travelling in the deserts of the area, without guns and nightvision? Pretty scary stuff for humans. Having a "gaurdian angel" to watch over you, to give you just a bit of forewarning, would be most welcome.
Re: Cronological gods...
Great post and great links, Jeffrey!!!
You know, what makes me angry about certain people is that they make their personal mythology final... end of story!!! While the great thing is to raise questions and try to find out our own answers to them... based on verifiable data.
So somehow they become... fundamentalist in the defense of their ideas...
Jeffrey, keep on speculating wildly... gods know that I do this quite a lot too!!!
Once, at the home of Harry Greenfield, the editor of The Wiccan, the predecessor of Pagan Dawn, the mag of the Pagan Fed - UK, an archaeologist guy who had just found paganism asked the group whether we did not get unhappy for not being able to find all answers in a lifetime.
"Don´t think so... I want all questions and the Will to find out as many answers as possible!" I replied.
Surely the guy looked at me as if I were an ... alien!!!
Any physicist or astrophysicist to defend that before the Big Bang we were all like Kether? The potential to be not yet realized?
hmmm ... Professor Stephen Hawkings said very much the same thing. I just put some Kabbalah into it...
Snake-dragon is one of Marduk´s pets...
I haven´t studied snake gods in Mesopotamia, but Jacobsen alludes to a fourth group of gods consisting of Ninazu, his son Ningishizida, Damu and Girsu as gods with pronounced chtonian character as powers of the Underworld. The source is Sumerian Gods and Their Representation, Cuneiform Monographs, edited by Finkel and Geller, Styx Publications, 1997. This is a volume dedicated to Jacobsen and that picture of his (the Norse hunk was taken out from this volume.
And with you and Jenny, Jeffrey, I guess I would handle any angry bearded uggly!
Love, light and laughter,
Lishtar
From the Depths and To the Heights to share in all spheres
demons and dragons
Liztar
“Demons represent unbalanced energies. I don’t see them particularly as negative ones, just that one should be veeeeeery careful when dealing with them.”
Though I do agree that they are dangerous it is important to know about them. My students haven’t quite gotten to the topic, but that is because their interests lie elsewhere. Were they interested I would first teach about what demons were and how they were used by the gods. Demon related magic would come when I was confident that the students knew what they were dealing with. Quite a good deal of the magic that survives from Mesopotamia is demon oriented and so a study of the culture should include them.
As far as unbalanced energies, that is a concept that is much more recent. In addition I have a strong feelings regarding the tendency in modern times to look at everything from a white light perspective. This is not how ancient cultures looked at them and we should attempt to curb our desire to look at other cultures through the lens of the culture that we are in.
Liztar
“The problem is that many people work with dichotomies, good vs evil, day vs night, king vs queen, instead of looking for the centerpoint that all sees and chooses wisely.”
Again I must point out that innate good and evil and the philosophy of balance between the two has its roots in Zoroastrian philosophy. If however you concentrate all of your education on the “good” and ignore the “evil” you will create a student unprepared once they encounter evil. The sheltered child who goes off to college unaware of what the world has to show them tends to become the sort of creature that they were meant to be sheltered from.
We are not Wiccans. We are not Christians. There are facts in this world that we should boldly accept without reservation. In truth we have one of the darker religions.
From a strictly practical point of view, we are the slaves of the gods. Should we not be the most useful slaves that we can be in order that the gods should be pleased with us?
That all being said posts are simply opinions laced with the occasional fact. As such their innate value is 0.02$.
Jeffrey
“SnakeDragon of Marduk! I've NEVER heard of this! I have heard of the association of dragon=Marduk”
Actually Marduk was portrayed with a snake dragon quite often. In addition there was a school of thought in neo-Babylonian thought that the other gods were all aspects of Marduk (later this philosophy was applied to Assur) As such Marduk could be considered a dragon.
In early Sumer many of the gods were portrayed as dragons particularly the dragons associated with realms, Kur being the best example of this.
And even if i could, I live in a small town, and I don't think the library has many of the books you have mentioned. As far as buying the books myself, well...again, I'm a college student. LOL I have no money! 
Email This To a Friend
Topic Commands
Click to receive email notification of replies 
Click to stop receiving email notification of replies