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        > Should women be allowed to serve in combat?
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Insanedawg 
Inspector General

Posts: 20
(26/5/02 21:31)
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Should women be allowed to serve in combat?
This topic has recently arisen in the UK, and has caused considerable debate amoungst military figures and politicians.
As the BBC reoprts: "The ban on women soldiers serving in frontline combat roles is to remain in place, Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon has announced. "

"Mr Hoon said that he was not prepared to "risk" the combat effectiveness of the armed forces by introducing women into all-male combat-fighting units."

"The decision was welcomed by the Chief of Defence Staff, Admiral Sir Michael Boyce, who said that allowing women into frontline combat roles would have been an "irresponsible experiment".

"But Liberal Democrat defence spokesman Paul Keetch warned the ruling could be open to legal challenge in terms of equality of opportunity."

I can see where both sides come from. On the one hand you have the concern over the security of the military. You want to keep things as they are, with well trained and reliable forces. Introducing women into different schemes may upset the balance. Some would argue that there wouldnt be a difference, for they are doing the same job. Granted, but there would definitely be a change in the ethos and mood of the military IMO.

Than again, you have to conside the need for change and the equal rights of women. Is the security of this country more important than the individual rights of women? This, I would say is a big picture .v. small picture debate.

But as one female has already emailed in and said:

"It's men that start these stupid wars - let them fight them in their own way and leave me out of it!"

Hugemon 
HELL comes to breakfast

Posts: 182
(26/5/02 21:43)
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Re: Should women be allowed to serve in combat?
As much as I respect some women's viewpoints on many subjects, their bodies are constructed differently thatn a man's. I honestly couldn't see a woman going thru what I went through during MY military training.

I would also be hesitant to go anywhere NEAR a gun-toting case of PMS.

I honestly believe that a woman could SHOOT somebody, & then get off, claiming that they had become a victim of temporary insanity.
;)

What do any of you girls think?

Wanna go play in the MUD & concertina wire with Sergeant FURY?
:lol

Behold, a pale horse, and the man that sat on him was Death
...and HELL followed with him

francine marie TM
Beautiful Dreamer

Posts: 52
(28/5/02 1:51)
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Re: Should women be allowed to serve in combat?
Hummmmm......

Well, women are very protective of who/what we care about by nature. I believe that would carry over to combat, meaning that we would give up our lives easily so someone else could live. We would also be an element of suprise to go in ground level, most armed forces don't allow women there.

However, I really don't belive that a woman could literally carry a 200(or larger) pound man on her back if he was in trouble as hard as she would try. I don't believe that if left to travel long distances with heavy equimpment a woman would be able to travel as far as a man.

Looking at the whole picture IMO, the combat should be left to the men. As much as I hate to admit it, there stamina and bodies are better naturally made to adapt to the conditions that is needed to achieve satisfaction in this case.

LilBonnie187 
Registered User
Posts: 4
(28/5/02 6:55)
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Re: Should women be allowed to serve in combat?
If the woman wants to I say let her, but personally Im a little old fashioned so I wouldnt want to do anything like that

COME VISIT ME AT CRAZY CHATTING REBORN
LilBonnie187

Hugemon 
HELL comes to breakfast

Posts: 190
(28/5/02 10:41)
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Re: Should women be allowed to serve in combat?
Thank you for your opinions, ladies.

I also tend to belive that allowing women to serve in combat would create a problem with morale...

You ladies here are the LAST one's that need to be reminded of how completely STUPID a man can be, wherever the attentions of a female are concerned...

Also, you know the old saying, "Any port in a storm".

When I was in the military, I saw guys sooo desperate they'd even be looking at the women with MOUSTACHES, & licking their lips...

I'd hate to see people get shot, just because one guy got smiled at, & hid buddy got overly-jealous...

Behold, a pale horse, and the man that sat on him was Death
...and HELL followed with him

francine marie TM
Beautiful Dreamer

Posts: 54
(30/5/02 4:28)
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Re: Should women be allowed to serve in combat?
You know that would happen too huge, the whole jealous thing.

It would happen on our side as well, there would be a few gals vain enough to work one guy against the other. Of course you know the goverment would try to regulate "relationships" between the male and female soldiers, which would make things that much more intense.

Choden Kal
Registered User
Posts: 8
(1/6/02 3:44)
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Re: Should women be allowed to serve in combat?
Are they allowed to serve in front line combat in any other country? Im just curious.

Hugemon 
HELL comes to breakfast

Posts: 198
(2/6/02 6:49)
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Re: Should women be allowed to serve in combat?
I thought that they *would* be allowed in Isreal, Choden Kal, so after some research, I managed to find this story from THE JERUSALEM POST. They wanted me to pay $2.00 to access their archives...hehehe.

AS IF
:lol

Quote:
Women on the front line
By Margot Dudkevitch
Monday October 8, 2001



(August 12) - Margot Dudkevitch joins a Border Police patrol on the outskirts of the Palestinian town of Tulkarm and finds that women are 'part of the scenery' in combat units.

It's early Monday morning. A Border Police unit is checking the identity of an Arab woman driving along one of the roads that used to lead to Tulkarm east of Netanya, but is now blocked off with mounds of earth and boulders.

"There is no reason for anyone to use this road; it leads nowhere, so anyone driving on it raises suspicions," says Border Police officer Supt. Assaf Ravid.

Cpl. Liraz Cohen stands guarding the vehicle as Staff Sgt. Michael Tal asks the woman for documents. Sitting next to the woman is a young boy who sits staring out the window. "Please get out of the car and open the trunk for inspection," says Tal.

Meanwhile Supt. Meirav Amar dictates details of the woman's identity and vehicle to headquarters. Fifteen minutes later the woman is ordered to turn the car around and leave.

Further up the road on the hillside, the unit spots two Palestinians standing in the middle of the road monitoring their movements. Amar peers through her binoculars at the two figures; Tal says he suspects that one of them may be carrying weapons. Cohen dons flak jacket and helmet and raises the roof of the jeep and stands with binoculars monitoring the Palestinians' movements, telling the others on the ground: "They appear to have gone to the left side of the road behind that tree." Ravid and Amar decide to advance to the mound of sand and stones blocking the road at the base of the hill in order to get a better view. They also don flak jackets and helmets, drive up to the mound of earth and peer over the top.

"Keep your heads down; it's not clear what their intentions are and where they are hiding," whispers Amar. There is no sign of the two Palestinians.

"The village is under our security control and there is another patrol on the other side of the village; we don't usually enter the village unless we have reason to," says Ravid.

Returning to the other unit, they decide to inform their superiors and shortly after, an IDF patrol is sent to the site. The four soldiers sweating in the hot sun, wearing flak jackets and full battle gear, enter the bush at the roadside. Their plan is to move through the wadi and make their way up the hill and approach the two Palestinians from the side. The Border Police units monitor their movements, and wait for further updates.

Just as the soldiers reach the site, the Palestinians are spotted fleeing the area in a white Subaru. Immediately, security forces and personnel manning the roadblocks are alerted as well as the security heads of the nearby Israeli communities, Sha'arei Ephraim and Nitzanei Oz. The soldiers return and accept a quick drink of water before returning to their base nearby.

All of those present served with Cpl. Hani Abramov, who was seriously wounded in the face and hands in a drive-by terrorist shooting on July 30 while on operational duty near Bir e-Sika just inside the Green Line. Six years ago, former Border Police Commander Yisrael Sadan, now mayor of Hadera, opened up opportunities for women seeking to take up combat positions.

Today, women who volunteer for combat positions in the Border Police ranks are deployed in an array of positions equal to their male counterparts, with a total of 140 women in combat positions and another 70 currently undergoing basic training. "Our job is to provide security for Israeli citizens and combat terror and crime," said Border Police Commander of the Central Division, Assist. Cmdr. Yitah Avraham. "The girls participate in all tasks, including ambushes, roadblocks, stakeouts and patrols - we don't differentiate between the sexes," he adds. Women in combat positions were initially a cause for concern as commanders feared there would be internal tensions between the sexes, but the fears, says Avraham, proved to be unfounded.

Recently, the Border Police issued a combat pin which it has begun issuing to all personnel in combat positions. Early Monday morning at a base near Maccabim, Avraham presided over a presentation ceremony.

Supt. Amar joined the Border Police around the same time that women were first being recruited to combat duties, and commanded the first female unit accepted to combat positions. Today she is in charge of coordinating security with the nearby Jewish communities. "At first it wasn't easy; we were perceived as freaks and a focus for jokes.

"The quality of the girls applying for combat duty is of a far higher caliber than it was then. However, we work a lot harder in order to prove ourselves. Today, we are considered a part of the scenery. As with the men, there are women on whom I can rely totally to give me the necessary support out in the field, and others who I can depend on less," she says.

"When Hani was wounded, we were all affected as everyone perceived her as being invincible; she is considered to be one of our strongest fighters," adds Amar.

However, Tal and Cpl. Itzik Monatzo have their doubts. "Some of the female fighters cannot deal with all situations; they lack the knowledge and understanding, even though they go through the same training. Some of them you can rely on totally that they will do the job and support you, if needed," Monatzo says.

Tal asserts that difficulties sometimes arise when dealing with the dispersal of an angry Palestinian mob or demonstrators. "The other side are humiliated by the presence of border policewomen, they consider a woman's place is in the home. Because of their primitive attitude, the girls [border policewomen] often become a target, tempers swell, the general atmosphere is unpleasant. If you are the officer in charge, you are confronted with a difficult decision as to whether to deploy the girls in the forefront or on the flanks, he says.

"Many of our female fighters are excellent at detective work and dealing with the Palestinian public when inspecting their vehicles, but we are sometimes faced with difficult choices, especially when we are confronted with an angry mob.

"What happens if someone in the crowd hits one of the girls, breaks her nose or steals her weapon?" he asks, adding, "it is nothing to do with chauvinism, I am talking on a professional basis."

Ravid has no problem serving alongside border policewomen, but declares, "if there is one female fighter who can be totally relied on it's Hani, she is a No. 1 fighter."

The central division is responsible for a 74-kilometer stretch from the coast to the seam-line areas of Judea and Samaria, says Avraham.

"Our foremost mission is to prevent Palestinians without authorization from crossing into Israel. They are potential terrorists and therefore our job is to prevent them from reaching Tel Aviv and Netanya," he says.

He admits, however, that it is impossible to seal the area hermetically. "People managed to get over the Berlin Wall and escape from the Alcatraz prison," he jokes, but notes, seriously, "the presence of our forces, together with the Israel Police and soldiers, helps to hamper attempts by those seeking to cross into Israel. We cannot stop everyone."

Indeed, in an area known as Givat Hashabahim (the Hill of Illegal Entry), a stretch of rubbish-strewn land between Taibe and Tulkarm, three border policemen monitor the movements and foil attempts of Palestinians attempting to enter Israel illegally. Daily they catch at least 400 Palestinians attempting to enter Israel and also foil attempts by Israelis seeking to enter Tulkarm.

"Just before you came, we spotted two Palestinians carrying bags. They could be potential terrorists carrying explosives or weapons. We failed to catch them, but we notified a nearby patrol which pursued them," says fresh recruit Shai Rabi.

"Often they seek alternative routes when they spot security forces," adds Shai Uzana. Ravid explains: "Here there are several Israeli communities, Sha'ar Ephraim and Nitzanei Oz which are in close proximity to the seam-line areas. Many illegal Palestinians work in the fields there, and among them are potential terrorists. Those who are not wanted for questioning by the General Security Service are sent back to the territories."

In addition, security forces also clamp down on Israeli employers who, if caught with illegal workers, face a speedy judicial process and stiff fines. "Our intention is to make them realize that employing illegal workers is not worth their while," says Ravid.

Towards noon, Cohen returns with Ravid and Amar to the base located near Tulkarm and begins cleaning her room with her roommates. Later in the day she plans to visit Abramov in the hospital. Ravid and Amar go to the mess hall to eat before going out once again on patrol. "I rarely get time to eat my meal sitting down - there is always so much work to do," sighs Ravid.

Boosting security on the seam
With the intention of boosting security along the seam-line areas and in an attempt to prevent potential terrorists from the territories entering Israel, the Border Police this week recruited 100 conscripts, including former soldiers from combat units and policemen who served in other positions in the Border Police.

The new recruits will be part of a new Border Police battalion in charge of patrolling the Green Line border area together with additional support from the Israel Police and the IDF.

The Border Police have received government approval for a total of 500 men and women who will be deployed along the seam line.

Due to the security situation, Defense Ministry and government officials are in the process of establishing an overall plan that will deal with the security situation and are examining the possibility of building a security fence and deploying the latest electronic equipment to assist in monitoring the movement of Palestinians attempting to enter Israel illegally.

Behold, a pale horse, and the man that sat on him was Death
...and HELL followed with him

Choden Kal
Oops! Sorry...I didnt mean to shatter your poor little universe

Posts: 11
(8/6/02 18:51)
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Re: Should women be allowed to serve in combat?
wow huge that was really interesting, thanks!

So it seems that after all the hoopla, its not really that big of an issue for the troops, huh. I got something in my email from an extremely conservative friend of mine that illustrated how women are unfit for duty based on thier scores in a series of tests. ( i deleted it, sorry, just went and looked for it :/) But according to this article, the women who volunteer for the front lines are generally the same distribution of skill as the men, tho they work harder at it. Very cool article, thanks a lot :D

Hugemon 
HELL comes to breakfast

Posts: 214
(9/6/02 0:35)
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Re: Should women be allowed to serve in combat?
No problem, Choden Kal; I was interested myself, but one thing you should keep in mind is that this story was about ISRAELI women...those girls are anything but pampered.

The Jews have been persecuted for generations, & just like pressure can turn a lump of coal into a diamond, the stress of their daily lives has hardened these girls FAR beyond the state of an average American or British woman.

I'd be willing to bet that any Israeli Womens Combat group would completely decimate any other countries similarly-armed female army. Those Israeli's don't play around.

American female forces wouldn't be anywhere near as competent & deadly as the Israeli girls in the story above...

Behold, a pale horse, and the man that sat on him was Death
...and HELL followed with him

Choden Kal
Oops! Sorry...I didnt mean to shatter your puny little universe

Posts: 13
(9/6/02 15:40)
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Re: Should women be allowed to serve in combat?
Well thats true, but the same could really be said for the men as well, right?

Hugemon 
HELL comes to breakfast

Posts: 220
(9/6/02 17:19)
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Re: Should women be allowed to serve in combat?
Oh, most definitely. Compared to the "Aiel" Israeli's, most of our male forces are definitely pampered "wetlanders"...

But because of "our" (American) limitations, I honestly do believe that we're better off keeping our sexes separated.

The Israeli's are simply far more serious about warfare than we are.

Behold, a pale horse, and the man that sat on him was Death
...and HELL followed with him

OctoberOmicron 
Registered User
Posts: 6
(15/6/02 1:21)
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Re: Should women be allowed to serve in combat?
Well, I'm not one to tell a woman she can't do what she wants/needs to do for her country. Personally, I'd be against my own wife or mother going to the military and into war though. Not only because of fighiting the "other" side but the other battles a woman would have in a man dominated arena such as the military. It's too much bullshit and it's not worth it.

But I do believe they should be completely tested in every way possible to see if their bodies by birth (and by training) are adapted enough to handle war. No sense in sending a woman that wouldn't be capable. Not to be biased, but I think they'd need to be tested in that regard far more than a man would.

Manxbabe 
Registered User
Posts: 7
(24/6/02 9:10)
Reply

Re: Should women be allowed to serve in combat?
I served in the British Army for 12 years and saw and was involved in conflict. I went to war against those Argentinians who thought they could just walk onto British soil and claim it as their own. I lost some very good friends in that conflict:( I have also served in Northern Ireland - this is much scarier as you do not know who your enemy is!! Granted at the Falklands I was not on the front line - but my life and my colleagues lives were very much at stake on many occasions. I was aboard the SS Uganda which was converted into a hospital ship. Explosions were going on all around us and the ship could have quite easily been hit. During my Army training I was trained with guns and had to do similar training as the men (my husband would dispute this fact;) - he is an ex British Paratrooper and trainer of Para's) OK - I didn't have to do 20 mile marches with 70 llbs on my back - and face the rigours of "P" Company - but that was then!! Now, the females are allowed to attempt to join the Parachute Regiment and the Royal Marines if they can get through the gruelling training - the exact training as the men without any acception being taken for the fact that they are women. There are now some women serving in the Parachute Regiment and also the Marines. These women are also contrary to popular belief some sort of butch Amazonian creatures. The ones I have seen are very fit looking attractive women. Francine Marie mentioned that womens views may be different when faced in a combatant situation - I can assure you that I would have no hesitation of firing my gun on anyone who was threatening the safety of my colleagues and myself. This also includes child guerilla soldiers. I would feel incredibly saddened by my actions if it was a child - but it would have been one of those things that I would have just had to grit my teeth and get on with.

In Northern Ireland we were faced with a faceless enemy. I actually went out on patrol with the men through the streets of Northern Ireland with my SA80 (rifle) - I experienced people - complete strangers spitting in your face and sometimes gunshots would be fired by them - rocks and other implements would be thrown at us. It is this sort of situation where problems may arise. The men instinctively surrounded me to protect me - I had no objections to this at the time - but looking back I can see the unfairness of it. My husband feels that women shouldn't be put into combat situations as they are more of a liability - he feels that if a woman was shot and injured that the men would rush to help her instead of getting on with the job in hand. Also - physical problems - if he was dug in a ditch somewhere for days on end and the woman was menstruating - how would she cope with this? There would be absolutely nowhere for her to change tampons or pads and it would cause embarrassment for her and also for the soldiers she was with. I can see this point too. The only way round this would be to have only female combat battalions that would work alongside the men but in many cases - leave them unmixed.

With regard to my family and friends being worried about me. Well when I think of all the potentially dangerous situations I have got myself into in my life through drinking too much - doing extreme types of sport like parachuting, rockclimbing, racing motorcyles - there is more likelyhood of something bad happening to you through these activities. Soldiers are highly trained and safety is paramount - OK sometimes risks have to be taken - but in most cases they are controlled risks.

I enjoyed my time in the British Army and would do it all over again if I could - I travelled the world and did and seen many things that the majority of the people will never see or get the chance to do in their lifetime. I don't regret one minute of it!!


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