Symbolism and applicabilityGayalondiel
Tavern Hostess
Inn Keeper
posted January 06, 2003 06:12 AM
This thought ocurred to me whilst reading the 'Lembas' thread: some people, myself included, see clear influences of Christianity, in particular Roman Catholicism in LotR. I think (please correct me if I'm wrong) that in one of his letters Tolkien wrote that the revisions on LotR were performed from a very Catholic viewpoint. But Michael White, in his biography of JRRT presents a different viewpoint: that Tolkien used Middle-earth as a means to escape Catholicism:
Quote:
But it is surely more than a coincidence that Tolkien became interested in language and ancient mythology at almost exactly the same time that he lost his mother. Could it be then that a part of Tolkien's subconscious mind felt resentful of Catholicism... that the Church had taken his mother from him? Could not this aspect of his inner self have sought out a non-Christian realm, a radical, heathan alternative, a place where there was no Orthodox faith?
~Michael White: Tolkien: A Biography
To me it seems that here we have two viewpoints, on one hand that Middle-earth was built with a Christian ethic, on the other that it was a reaction against that same faith. Are these mutually exclusive? It's well known that Tolkien hated allegory but saw applicabiliy in his work: is it then that we impose our own viewpoint, faith, ar teachings over a story that could belong to a multitude of faiths?
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Laiedheliel
new Born
posted January 18, 2003 01:49 PM
Irony
Most people apply their own personal meanings, at least in my experience and with my own writings, to other people's works. It's something one could almost call part of human nature: looking for a way to identify with something that is surreal. Possibly the reason that Middle-Earth was said to be based on such an orthodox faith as Christianity was because of the was it detached itself from such mundane things as most people are able to idenitify with.
There are elements of so many different faiths in both Middle-Earth and Christianity that it is easy to see the relationship. Religion, the topic of my paper this year for my English class, actually, has been a part of man's everyday life since prehistory. Most likely that is also part of the reason we associate so many things that are outside the boundries of daily life, like Tolkien's Middle-Earth, to our religion is that we feel that it is something also surreal, but close enough to us that it matters.
Does that help?
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Gayalondiel
Tavern Hostess
Inn Keeper
posted January 25, 2003 07:43 AM
Thanks for that answer, Laiedheliel. I imagine that I personally overlay a very Christian bias on my readings of most books, but Tolkien especially, since I'm aware of how very devoutly Christian he was.
I'd be very interested to know if people of other faiths read the book, or of course how athiests and agnostics read the book: I imagine it's applicable to many religions, but I can't claim to know anything outside my own Anglican faith.
Does anyone read anything religious (or, of course, secular) into Tolkien?
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Laiedheliel
new Born
posted January 27, 2003 01:36 PM
I myself am not Christian, actually, but I do see many parallels in Tolkien's work to both the Christian religion and many others.
Fantasy has its roots in religion--the first epic fantasy stories were myths and legends normally formed around the amazing power of some deity or other, so it's very easy to see why many fantasy stories have a **** in the author's religion, or even just religion in general.
If you're asking for specifics, I could go on and on and on...but only if you ask. ~^ But like I said before, many people put a bias outlook on most things they read, as they have an outlook that may be different than the author's; a Christian's outlook on something is most likely going to be very different from, say, a Buddhist's. Both were taught to look at the world from different angles.
I can't really speak for atheists or agonists, not being one myself, but I suppose it would depend upon background: if you were raised Christian but became Atheist, perhaps you would see the same parallels? That's something I'd be interested in hearing about as well.
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Cimmerian
The Sentinel!
Chief Magistrate
posted January 27, 2003 10:08 PM
Gayalondiel and Laidheliel, this topic and discussion so far is rather exciting! Most forums disallow religion and theological debate, but I ask them why not. Religion and theology are part of everyday life and anyone and everyone has a right to discuss it as long as the debate doesn't degenerate into slander and flaming.
I agree after some thought with either of you that religion is deeply rooted in all tales of fantasy fiction, as they all feature gods and goddesses in many forms and manifestations.
Doesn't this lead you to wonder that religion, all religion, is in fact a base form of fantasy in itself. Every religion has it's birth in some form of ancient suprstition. The inability of the simple human mind to comprehend natural and scientific phenomena as simple as for example, the rising of the sun, its eclipse and changes in wheather, have given rise to superstitious beliefs and rituals, which then over the passage of time snowballed into customs more complex and demanding.
Being raised in a society of strict catholic rules and regulations and restrictions, I must confess that I have a loathing, a distaste for that religion. And so in all my endevours to contribute as a writer of fiction I will naturally try to move away from the nature of that religion and form my fantasy world on alternate resources of literature, often from the writings of other religions, which appear as fantasy to me. Like wise people of differing faith may find the teachings of christianity and the writings of the bible a form of fantasy to them as they seek to escape the rigours of their religious sects and beliefs.
Tolkien being a christian, may have been tired of his faith and represented an alternate universe of religion and culture, perhaps inspired from obscure sources of belief and rituals. Or he may then again have been trying to represent his own religion of chritianity in a more flambouyant and exciting manner. If either of you have read the letters of Tolkien maybe you could help me find out more on this. Not that I am terribly interested in finding that out. I am just interested in keeping this debate raging.
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Gayalondiel
Tavern Hostess
Inn Keeper
posted January 30, 2003 06:29 AM
I'm not sure that you're correct in thinking that Tolkien was tired of his faith. Of course I didn't know him, and I don't have his letters, but both his biographies that I have read paint a portrait of him as a highly faithful man, who grew up a very strong catholic. Whether LotR represents a subconscious departure from his religion, or whether it's an expression of the same (for this I do not have an answer) I do not think he would have knowingly written a work of this magnitude against his faith.
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Sister Bigfoot
The Artist
Shirriff
posted February 02, 2003 06:17 PM
Quote:
that Tolkien used Middle-earth as a means to escape Catholicism:
I thought it was his way of dealing with a war conflicted world???
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Cimmerian
The Sentinel!
Chief Magistrate
posted February 02, 2003 11:31 PM
Gaya, what I am thinking is "if" Tolkien was tired of his faith, or feared it or wish to express it further through his works. The panthaeon of Gods and Goddesses of Tolkiens middle earth is similar to the religious mythos of ancient Rome, Greece and Egypt with Dieties for differing elements of nature and the like. It is purely stuff of fantasy. Though many people associate religion with it, which is meaningless. But people tend to fear, for it is so easy to believe in something and feel content and safe with it, that when something new or different comes along, the first reaction is always that of fear and doubt.
I could ramble on and on about the history of religion and its rutals and human nature, but I'd only end up confusing everyone, most of all myself.
Yes Sister Bigfoot, LOTR is about a world of conflicts and war and such, but what makes that world click; what makes the people of that world go to war; who are the people of that world? That's where all these questions of religion and fantasy arise. That's why Tolkien wrote the Silmarillon.
Laidheliel, it was your posts that got me into this thread, I look foreward to your response.
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Gayalondiel
Tavern Hostess
Inn Keeper
posted February 03, 2003 02:33 AM
Sister Bigfoot, I don't think it's that simple, there are many highly arguable theories about Tolkien's motivation. As for war though, there are many places in which this influence is visable (although I'm not going to go into a list of them right now...).
Cimm, great post! I'll get back to you on it...
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Sister Bigfoot
The Artist
Shirriff
posted February 11, 2003 02:06 PM
Tolkin may or may not have written the books as a reaction to World War Two (I saw this theory banded around on some program a few years ago and would love to see it again, so if anyone knows what the documentry was called, could you tell me pleases), but many others did.
I liked this theory of Tolkin being influenced by the Great War because many artist of the time were also.
It has been said that Modern art was a reaction to the war. The people, who lived through it, expressed their experience through their art. Their paintings and sculptures, rather than being expressions of technique and having classical subject matter (the style of painting widely used before the wars), artist started to experiment more. This allowed them express their reaction to the war in ways that they could not before.
To me, all the various modern styles of painting, and the various schools of modern thought, theory and technique (like that of ‘The Blue Rider’ [translated from Russian]) are a direct result of the great war of Tolkins time. If the war had effected art so completely, the why not writing?
I'm telling you all this so you don't all think that my question was stupid . Being an artist, I relate many things back to art. It was how I was educated.
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Laiedheliel
new Born
posted February 13, 2003 12:02 PM
Right on, Sister Bigfoot. I see what you mean--already all of this conflict between the States and Iraq has driven me to some rather original poems...Apparently, there are several things that were present in Tolkein's life that could have been excellent inspirations.
Quote:The panthaeon of Gods and Goddesses of Tolkien's Middle Earth is similar to the religious mythos of ancient Rome, Greece and Egypt with deities for differing elements of nature and the like. It is purely stuff of fantasy.
Cimm, I disagree. If you review the three main philosophies of the beginnings of religions, those of Tylor, Muller, and Otto, worship of nature and the elements was the first religion to come about. At this time, people did not view fantasy as an escape, but the basis of everyday life. It arose from somewhere, and I believe that the knowledge given to us by those people before the world was spoiled is invaluable. Yes, it's true that it has become the basis of many fantasy stories, but at the same time, several of the world's current religions also subscribe to a theory very similar to it.
To me it seems that the sheer opposites of our society-religion and violence-both contributed to Tolkien's work. It's an odd cause and effect situation--religion, though most of the time it urges peace and goodwill toward our fellow man, often is the driving force behind much of the troubles that have arisen in our history. Correct me, please, if I'm wrong, but I didn't really see much of that in Tolkien's Middle Earth. I didn't actually see much of religion present at all--the Elves religion was dominant, and I don't remember any mention of a Dwarf, Hobbit, or Human religion.
Am I being over analytical? I did my research paper for English this year on the origins of religion, so this discussion is being fueled by two months worth of research. ^_^
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Cimmerian
The Sentinel!
Chief Magistrate
posted February 14, 2003 12:42 AM
Laie, I said that they were similar to those, not the exact same as. To believe that there were separate gods for each of the elements, and for each and every unexplained natural occurance would be rather far-fetched in this time and age. The people of the times when you say the Earth was unspoiled, were indeed overawed by natural phenomena that they did not comprehend and it was so easy to leave all that to the realms of the gods, the all powerful supreme beings, and pay the price of being exploited by those sly enough to pose as these beliefs' representatives. In my opinion, such beliefs are mere fantasy that have grown into the human races' psyche, consantly haunting the subconcious mind.
As far as Tolkien is concerned, I believe he does see this as fantasy and uses it well in his narrative. The ancient gods of the earth's various cultures, while being purely fantastical themselves, have inspired and leant towards many a tale of fantasy and lore. Just as it is done in the Lord of the Rings!
Big Sis, you make a good point, now that you have explained what you earlier stated. Well, yes... war in all it's horrific and macabre splendour does inspire many, and expression of these impressions can be found in poetry, prose and artwork but I agree with Laie about what Tolkien uses the basis of War for in his tale.
Nature has shown that often to make changes for life to adapt anew, violent and destrutive means are almost always necessary, and what if humans contribute to that norm, albeit in ways and means suitable to them. In other words, war is necessary for humans as a race to evolve and grow, then so be it.
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Sister Bigfoot
The Artist
Shirriff
posted February 16, 2003 01:58 PM
Wow, you two are taking this topic to a deeper level.
I liked the books because there was no strong element of religion.
J.R.R.T was neither for religion nor against it. If you read David Edding’s book’s you are often confronted with an under layer of religion (usually two religions against each other), but not so with Tolkin. I’m not saying religion was not present, just that it was not rammed down our throats
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Laiedheliel
new Born
posted February 19, 2003 01:41 PM
Quote:
Nature has shown that often to make changes for life to adapt anew, violent and destrutive means are almost always necessary, and what if humans contribute to that norm, albeit in ways and means suitable to them. In other words, war is necessary for humans as a race to evolve and grow, then so be it.
Cimm, I agree entirely. But nature has also shown us that history repeats itself, repeatitively (sp?) (And, yes, the pun was in fact intended ~^). Mayhaps what made sense then will begin to make sense again, now? We just don't know. But unlike then, now we have other means of answering our questions and other ways of suppressing our awe, and other ways of proving the things that came between then and now are just as fantastic as what came both before and after. Another difference that strikes me is that then, there was no denomonation, no way of determining a variance. We then segregated our seperate systems of thought into different categories, and finally now, after years of struggle and bloodshed, it has begun to change. So war facilitates all growth, even spirtiual growth. Man, I wish I had used that in my paper...*laughs*
Quote:
I liked the books because there was no strong element of religion.
J.R.R.T was neither for religion nor against it.
I have always thought this was because the story of LotR and its timeline did not facilitate such an element. We didn't have religion rammed down our throats, and with J.R.R.T.'s tact, I don't believe we would have, but many of the writers I have read to date have explored some aspect of spirituality through their writing. I have not yet found time to read the Silm or any of the History of Middle Earth series, but is there any emphasis on religion there? If so, this would explain somewhat its absense in his mainstream works.
To introduce a new question to an already loaded thread: does religion offer an anchor to our world, when used in a fantastic tale? If an author put a common place religion of his or her times into a story full of seemingly impossible escapades, would it offer a base for the reader to relate to the characters in the adventure? Does that question even make sense?
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Sister Bigfoot
The Artist
Shirriff
posted February 19, 2003 07:47 PM
Quote:
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear." --From the Litany against Fear of the Bene Gesserit rite.
MY FAVEROUITE BOOK ! Laiedheliel, is Dune one of your favourite books too.
I love this Litany. It is so appropriate for life. It really works . By the time you remember the words to it your fear is gone.
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Laiedheliel
new Born
posted February 21, 2003 01:19 PM
lmao, Sister. I know what you mean. It's creepy the way it actually works. Yes, the first Dune is one of my favorite books, I finished it in only a day and a half. ^_^ The series, however, is an entirely different story...
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Sister Bigfoot
The Artist
Shirriff
posted February 22, 2003 10:03 PM
your my type of person
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Gayalondiel
Tavern Hostess
Inn Keeper
posted March 04, 2003 12:57 PM
Quote:I have not yet found time to read the Silm or any of the History of Middle Earth series, but is there any emphasis on religion there?
THat depends on what you mean by religion. If you mean an organised religion in the order of Christianity, Islam, or modern organised religion, then no. (With the clearest exception being the Numenorean worship of Melkor after he was cast into the void). The residents of Middle-earth in the first age are comparable to the ancient Greek heroes in that they walk with their gods, speak to them and even breed with them occasionally. While they never of course see Eru, their one God, they are left in no doubt of his existance through the might and beauty of the Valar, who were once with him in the great Music.
So, if you're asking if the Sil reflects organised Christianity (or any other religion, for that matter) then the answer is not dicertly.
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Sister Bigfoot
The Artist
Shirriff
posted May 26, 2003 06:46 PM
Although there is an underlining moral issue throughout TLR and the Sil. Tolkien, being a Christian, his ideas of what constitutes being moral are vastly christen. Remember one of Tolkien’s main themes for both stories was the idea of morality. So in a way they are religious.
Maiden du Mystique
Posts: 75
(3/18/04 7:36 am) Reply
Re: Symbolism and applicability
(HTML and formatting edits made for easier reading)
-Mym
Home is behind, the world ahead, and there are many paths to tread.
Through shadow, through the edge of night, until the stars are all alight. Mist and shadows, cloud and shade, all shall fade, all shall...
...fade.
Re: Symbolism and applicability
As we just had Easter did any one see the semblance between Gandalf’s passing away and return as a direct representation of the story of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus? Also after the death on the cross Jesus was sent to Hell for 3 days and battled with the Devel. Gandalf also fell from a high place and fought with evil in his fight between the Belrog.
The Town Artist
Posts: 103
(4/23/04 12:32 pm) Reply
Re: Symbolism and applicability
Oh no...I hate it when people compare Christianity with Tolkien's work. Its too easy!
Yes, I think it is similar and I believe Tolkien did this on purpose. He was mimicking an important religious event as a tool to enforce the fact that this particular event was significant. Tolkien wanted people to realize that Gandolf had not just change physically, but spiritually as well. He was an altered being who was now more powerful due to his experience, just like Jesus.
(Just once I'd like someone to compare Tolkien's work with Buddhism, just for a change!! )
Re: Symbolism and applicability
You have to remember that Tolkien was very Catholic. Because he came out of that sort of a background, and had very strong beliefs, it's not surprising that they carried over to his work. However, I highly doubt that it was intentional. Everything we ever write is based on some experience or thought that we have once had. There is no getting around that. Original writing is just putting our cumulative experiences together in an unusual way. Therefore, it is inevitable that certain events in Tolkien's writing parallel Christianity. However, I feel no qualms about ignoring the parallels. They can be drawn, yes. But if you try, you can see similarities between almost anything (including between Tolkien and Buddhism ). If you don't look for them, you need not necessarily see them, and the fact that they exist need not compromise your enjoyment of the story as an original and self-contained story.
I personally never saw any Christian symbolism in Tolkien's works. But then, I never saw any in CS Lewis either (not until somebody pointed it out to me, that is). I think the reason is that I read them at too young an age to be drawing parallels. These things just didn't occur to me. I accepted the stories as themselves and didn't analyze them. Of course it helps that my family never placed much emphasis on the bible.
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Hobbits bow to nobody and nothing...except their plates.
Maiden du Mystique
Posts: 133
(4/26/04 12:37 am) Reply
Re: Symbolism and applicability
There are so many places were symbolism can be applied, especially Religious Symbolism. But Tolkien did say, when he was repeatedly questioned, that to directly work off Christianity, was not his intention at all. He wanted the books to be viewed as what they are, rather than as playoffs from others.
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Memories of things that made me love you - memories of words that made me love you - memories that now are horrible to me. And how I worshipped you! You were to me something apart from common life, a thing pure, noble, honest, without stain. The world seemed to me finer because you were in it...
)
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