What exactly could be classified as an elf?
I have been reading books on fantasy tales since I could first hold a book. Starting with little fairy tales and going on to much more fantastic stuff later on.
Recently, while watching LOTR-FOTR with a friend who is not into heavy reading and would never hold a Tolkien novel, let alone read it, (she tires from reading comic books), I found myself thinking, what exactly is an elf in fantasy lore. This was after a comment my friend made, while she watched the movie rather vaguely, often missing out on parts, while getting food and drink and yammering on her phone, and such. - Then she said, "I can believe that Elijah Wood made a fine elf here, but Sean Astin and the other two, and worst of all that old guy, they couldn't have been cast as elves."
When I replied that they weren't and that they were cast as little creatures called hobbits, she laughed it off as if I made a joke. This got me to thinking, people from different fields of exposure to fantasy have differing views, but it is mostly so in the case of the Elf. Elves have been presented in so many differing forms and of so many differing legends, it leads me to wonder. In relation - dwarves, dragons, trolls, fairies and other such beings are very constant in their descriptions and behavior in many differing tales and even genres.
Tolkien's Elves are described as tall, fair and beautiful creatures, modeled after the Celtic legends, but not everyone reads Tolkien. So I guess that anyone not familiar with Tolkien would laugh when they hear some wishing to be or to dress like an elf, this someone would be obviously referring to a Tolkien elf, like Legolas.
I, myself hadn't heard of Tolkien until after I had seen the movie.
I find the most commonly featured elf etched in the mind is of a small, near dwarf like in size, but prettier in visage and build, very secretive and often mischevious kind. Rather like the ones found in the Elfquest Saga and Neverwinter Nights games, where these tiny creatures are classified as wood elves, water elves, wind elves, white elves, dark elves, etc.
Elves were first published in the legendary fable Beowulf, that also features dwarves and dragons. Then in the famous Cantebury tales. But the origin of the Elf lies shrouded deep in the mists of ancient history and myth.
Scandenavian elves, often reffered to as nature spirits, small in stature, evil and sometimes good are very different from the elves of Celtic mythos, where they are as tall as humans and are often invisble, raher like the Elf of Middle Earth.
Elves featured in various works of fantasy differ to such varying degrees that they could be classified as entirely different species or creations, yet the name Elf holds such mysticism that is is enough for people to be interested. It seems that it is solely upon the discretion of the creator and author of the tale to feature and describe the elf in any fashion, design and character he/she sees fit. In contrast dwarves, faiies, dragons, etc are often designed with a constant mold.
The Elf in Dungeouns and Dragons Saga is designed after the Tolkien elves, with similar classes and distinctions, though they are not given much precedence over the human characters.
The Elfquest Saga, featuing the more acceptable elf of fairy tales, the cute, dimunitive variety, celebrates the exciting life of the elf through adventure and merriment. ElfQuest! and Elfquest Characters
The Elves featured in Lodoss War again vastly differ from the above two sagas. - Lodoss War!
The Neverwinter Nights Mythos presents us with Elves as a people with disctinct classes - Neverwinter Nights
The Elf that help Santa Claus are described as childlike hard workers, often more like Goblins and Dwarves, they also love to covet what they make or build.
Now the Hobbit, if a creation of Tolkien, is often mistaken for an elf, by people who mostly watch movies, such as my friend. Based on her passive comment, I asked around amidst my circle of friends who are not Tolkien readers, or even Fantasy fans. Most of them drew a blank when it came to hobbit, but all had vague ideas about the elf and the dwarf. Some dismissed hobbits as midgets or dwarves. Other creatures that resemble hobbits, by nature and description are Gnomes, Halflings, Brownies, etc.
In conclusion to this introductory segment of this discussion, I would like to ask, What exactly am I expected to assume that a character and personality of a creature titled an Elf really is? Am I to fall on all these varying sources or do I generate a creation all my own and call it an elf?
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Gayalondiel
posted January 05, 2003 02:50 AM
Interesting post, Cimm.
For my part, the answer would be to choose a definition that suits you, the term refers to so many things these days. Looking back on mythology, the English term 'elf' has generally referred to little pixie-sprite type things that flit about gardens in Ireland and similar places, completely removed from those we read about in Tolkien.
Incidentally, it's worth bearing in mind that Tolkien's Elves were less based upon any specific mythological characters than they were a product of his imagining with a conveniant name (although of course they do bear significant influence from those sources that were studied in the courses he taught, namely Beowulf and similar norse/icelandic myths). It's interesting to note that Tolkien himself divided him Elves from mythology by using the terms Elven, Elvish, etc instead of the traditional english elfin, elfish, etc. He reputedly had a great deal of difficulty with his proof-readers on this account, so it seems that he very specifically chose not to have the traditional spelling.
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Cimmerian
The Sentinel!
Chief Magistrate
posted January 12, 2003 01:34 AM
So then can we rightly credit the Elves of LOTR as a creation of JRRT. Most defintely he has created the subraces, language, culture and world of his elves, as he did for the Hobbits.
If Tolkien wished, I think he could have give his version of the elf a new name, thus creating a completely new and different fantasy creature, like he did the hobbit, uruk-hai and the balrog. But the term 'elf' holds so much charm, mystery and allure, it must be like torture to not bank in on it.
The first time I read of Elves was in the tale of the 'Shoemaker and the Elves', then I came across Santa's Helpers. With Elfquest and Lord of the Rings to Dungeons and Dragons and the Posion Elves, these mythical sprites, spirits, whatchamaycallit have come along way in Fantasy writing. Let's have much more of them in the future.
I want to know more, I want to read more views. Come on people, post already.
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Gayalondiel
Tavern Hostess
Inn Keeper
posted January 12, 2003 05:42 AM
quote:
Quote:So then can we rightly credit the Elves of LOTR as a creation of JRRT. Most defintely he has created the subraces, language, culture and world of his elves, as he did for the Hobbits.
I would say so. The most important thing to bear in mind on this front is, I think, that the language and culture were created first, and then Tolkien developed a species to suit them. I agree with what you said about the name 'Elf' as well, Tolkien could have comfortably just called them Quendi or Eldar had he wished, but 'Elf' gives them a familiarity and air of magic in the minds of most people before they even read much about them.
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Sister Bigfoot
The Artist
Shirriff
posted March 12, 2003 09:02 PM
I have often thought that JRRT was the father of modern fantasy (I'm drawing a distinct line between fairytales and the fantasy we read today).
Many books, like those produced under the title of ‘Dungeons and Dragons’, the creatures seem to have been strongly influenced (if not directly influenced) by JRRT writings.
Having said this, I've also noticed that many writers enjoy changing the popular belief systems involved in the character of such beings, like the Elves. These writers seem to want something original in their books, or they are combing different belief systems to create a more realistic reality.
If you are becoming confused as to which influence you’re Elves or other character comes under from your own readings, then you just need to relax.
Enjoy the book for what it is. A Fantasy. Anything is possible in a fantasy, and anything SHOULD happen. If everyone started to use the same formula to create a character or a culture, then there would be no variety.
It would be boring.
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Cimmerian
The Sentinel!
Chief Magistrate
posted March 24, 2003 12:02 AM
What the... the advice you seem to give in regards on influence is moot, dear BigSis. This discussion is beyond the point of being personally influenced. What we are going over here is - why is the term 'elf' so widely used in describing fantasy creatures of such varying degree?
Elves from some tales vary almost completely from the elves of another. No one has a problem with that here; it's interesting to bring up such curious facets of writing and discuss them. I am far from confused with anything in regard to it.
I disagree with you, however, about Tolkien being the father of mordern fantasy. He too has borrowed most of his characters from the realms of mythology and history that existed and mutated through the course of time. The differentiatation between fairy tales and serious fantasy as we see it can be creditted to the writings in "Beowulf", one of the earliest epics ever written down. Before which such tales were performed as song.
Yes, every tale of fantasy is influnecd and inspired by most that precede it but that doesn't take anything away from them.
What I find most fantastic about JRRT's work, is the exhaustive database and history of his world that he has created and for that I will always be a grateful fan and follower of LOTR.
If you have any information or anything you'd like to share about 'elves,' please do so.
~*~*~
Cimmerian
The Sentinel!
Chief Magistrate
posted November 01, 2003 01:57 AM
Could some of the newer members since April 2002 join in this discussion about... elves!
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Mr Underhill
Town Local
posted November 02, 2003 06:02 PM
I always thought that Tolkien was borrowing from Irish when he invented the elves. The Irish have such a rich mythology.
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elenna
Keen Eyed Wanderer
Shirriff
posted November 04, 2003 11:48 AM
Tolkien's elves do seem a lot more Celtic in origin than anything else. Instead of them being little pixies that make shoes, Tolkien gave them a lot of respect and power, which surprises a lot of people not familiar with Celtic mythology or LOTR.
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Eruanne
The Eternally Insane Princess
Chief Shirriff
posted November 06, 2003 10:51 AM
There were elves and dwarves in Beowulf? Either I didn't notice or the translation I read was screwy.
Visit me in the Prancing Pony http://breeunderbreehill.com/6/ubb.x
Good job reposting this topic here again before it was lost, Thain... but the links have not come through. I was thinking of reposting this one, links and all, but I won't lest it confuse newer members.
Come one, peeps, let's have a few more views on this discussion.
Maiden du Mystique
Posts: 73
(3/18/04 7:17 am) Reply
Re: The Trouble with Elves!
Post edited for easier reading. I will try to add to links later - the eve forum won't work for me at the moment.
-Mym
Home is behind, the world ahead, and there are many paths to tread.
Through shadow, through the edge of night, until the stars are all alight. Mist and shadows, cloud and shade, all shall fade, all shall...
...fade.
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