i never post on this ishh, but recent events and looking at the scene has made me get to the point where i feel i want to vent and state my opinion, just for the mere sake of gettin it off my chest...
now i need to clearly state that the following is my opinion, read it, understand it if you can, and if you are willing to dip into an intellictual conversation, then please reply.
i'm going to apologize now for the size of this post, and it may seem like i might single some people out but read everything in it's entirety before you judge.
now recent events and looking at the scene has made me come to a few conclusions. having the privilege to judge b&e was an eye opener in the sense that, i was exposed to the new scene and could somewhat foreshadow what is to come if we don't act quick.
some background before i get to the body; for alot of you newer cats, t.o. has had a history that needs to be learned. before the dawn of b2du and these current events, the toronto hip hop scene was a united one. all elements equally represented. you could go to a dj serious revue back in the day and run into every crew, btx, bb, intrikit, etc. you could mingle with the mix of dope dj's; turnstylez, turntable monks, funky teks, etc. you could run into rediculous writers; duro, skam, art child, etc. but not only at a dj serious revue, at any jam, be it a rave with qbert playin, the dmc tournaments, comfort zone, una mas, anywhere = it was hip hop at its finest. from a dancers perspective, back in the day was mad real. i use the term real because from the different styles that emerged from this city, everyone was on their own tip. and that's what made the city crazy. jams were to the point where battles would happen spontanaeously, they were mad heated, but they had energy. usually the aim was for one crew to run the jam or circle and everyone was dyin for that spot. ask anyone who has 6 plus years in the scene and they'll tell you; everything leading up to 99/2000 was rediculous, strictly climactic.
btx had won internationally, bb killed it in the states @ summit, gizmo and teeth (btx) were fuckin rocksteady g' damnit, turnstylez won itf's. toronto was on some @#%$ and guaranteed to make it's mark.
now here's where it changed.
around 99 when everything was on the rise, a separate scene was created to somewhat give dancers their own shine = b2du. although it had alot of positive influences; exposure of the dance to the new generation, increase in dancers like no other time, etc. there were also some negative influences that ironically seem to appear to this very day. rite away it caused division in the scene, and bboying soon became it's own element, alienated from hip hop. (ex. less bboys at jams, only bboys at bboy events)
before snc were at their current state, they were determined to rise to fame, mad hungry, but it seemed to happen at any cost. battles would happen between crews still; btx vs snc, ddt vs snc, but now all these other alterations started to appear; well this crew only won in routines, the other crew won in solos. this crew won because they knew the judges. this crew did too many routines past the limit, so they shoulda lost, breakin trophies, dashin score sheets. i say this cuz it's true and i was actually a part of the other side. battles were no longer won in entirety, they were won now partially or on technicalities. dyzee, if you're reading this, you know what i'm talkin about. i'll give you guys props for what you've done but the path as to how you got there is what i'm focusing on and you'll see why.
now can you somewhat see where i'm goin? this is 99/2000 before any sorta "official judging system". do you see any similarities?
this here was foreshadowing to this point system that everyone seems to disagree with. it was even forshadowed from back then. it became all comp no cypher...all sport no art, all practice no throwdowns. absolutely zero vibe.
now the reason why i had to state all of that was to back what i'm goin to say now. after seeing b&e for my own eyes, it sucks cuz i don't think i've ever been ashamed of toronto, let alone for being a bboy from toronto till now. us older heads are now a minority and the majority are kids. coincidentally these kids are now acting as how supernatz USED to act, and that's what really tripped me out. it made me come to the conclusion that the same beliefs, etc that this b2du scene was based upon has now created offspring with the present scene. and if it's not corrected, we mite as well kiss t.o. goodbye. the two generations clash and there's no coherence anywhere. kids wanna talk history; learn t.o. history and foundation, because that way you rep your city properly and to the fullest not ny or la or wherever. go and fuckin move there if that's the case cuz i know for damn sure t.o. had it's own identity prior to all this bs. crews and even individuals from here were able to single handidly impact the world bboy scene because of they're styles. not that styles were neither just footwork vs blowups / power vs style, it was everything repped as a package; branded t.o.
alot of you kids say damn, f the point system, battles need to be more raw. well before they were. having used the point system, i'll tell you that i was given creativity to judge and out of a possible 12 pts total, i found it difficult to give more than a total of 5 pts. maybe that's me, but for those of you who know me and have talked to me, i always encourage originality over anything and i do my best to do so thru my dancing. if i wanted to see particular blow ups, moves etc, why would i waste my time goin to a b&e, when i could have went to bombshelter, rented a fss vid and seen the same ishh. i don't want it to sound all negative, i'm hoping that by saying this, someone reading will understand what the underlying message is and start using their brain! i mean there's no doubt that i saw madd skillz at that jam but don't you think it would feel alot better comin from you? disect the phrase "be true to yourself" and hopefully you'll see what i mean. kids need to learn how to disregard the crowd and opinions and make a statement with their dancing. toronto was known for originating madd ishh and that legacy is one that we shouldn't lose. instead of playin this constant game of catch up w/ the world, why not turn the tables and have 'em follow us?
i see toronto as bein divided with a fine line, old generation vs new generation. neither seem to be willing to hear what the others have to say and after all this talk of wanting to progress the city, people need to realize that that'll never happen till the two sides are able to work together. that rite there is the reason why cities like ny, la, florida, have scenes like they do. it'll require the old heads to pass knowledge, the new jacks to listen, but then the old heads are to trust that the new will rep it rite.
sorry people for the ranting but; the bottom line is that the student only reps what's taught from the teacher. bad teacher = bad student. these kids weren't taught, they were left to watch and guess and witness b2du for all the sport it became. i am open to talk to kids and want to as a matter of fact bc for all those years of developing a scene, it's a shame to see it go to @#%$ bc nobody said @#%$. bottom line; dancing should have never been separated. b2du should have never split the scene, but it did, the bickering from back then continues now in the current crews, and lastly...hip hop should have never separated. it's crazy but they say how god unites and the devil separates. think about it...
i've shared these views with peeps 'round the way. if you don't believe me, ask piecez, frost, puzzles, tin tin, jester, silence, deadly, and even gizmo himself.
it's late i'm out...i apologize if this wasn't clear. if clarification's needed then please respond, i'll do my best.
peace,
TANGO
from b4 till now; shits gone wack and i've seen it happen along with others, sadly enough. but remember it's not too late...
i got into this scene in 99, i didnt rep right or battle, but i've observed a lot thats gone on and have taken time to learn a lot about toronto, this art of bboying, hiphop and just life in general.. and this right here is some real talk
.
Besides the political nonsense, one of the worst things about the scene is the calibur of the dancers here and that no one knows @#%$ about how to really break.
Re: ?
Thats true ..... i started gettin into bboyin maybe round 98 people might think sh*ts wack if you hear a Battle at an all ages Club but back den was the real deal...my very first battle i witnessed .......It was Back 2 Basics vs Fragg Ill Rocks .... Seen Gizmo, Teeth, Flex, Boogie Brats, Intrekit, Top Notch etc just straight up going at it in a cypher.....I say that was one of the best ever jam i been to which really got me goin... Also there was the BTX jams at comfort zone.... Rawness at its Fullest...
The difference is now and how it was before from my experience was back den the newer people really looked up to the local scene there was no bboyworld, freestylesession tapes, dvd etc to look at and see the current updates on moves or whatever.... If you look at these new kats, you will certainly see the strong influence of all sorts of washed down moves (sorry might be a wrong word 2 use) but hey dats how i see it.....
Re: .
probably the only post that has EVER been worth reading on these boards
just like what bhudda was saying about tradition in bboying...when babys grow up with no parents no tradition and no respect...you get bratty teenagers with no manners
my 2 pence worth
Ok, I'm not from T.O but I think I can try and make a contribution to this post, 'cos there are similarities in the UK scene, only in 98/99, the UK had nothing to offer the bboy world, T.O was flying high in the late 90's (I know, I got to cypher with the likes of BTX in London back then and they were real dope and original compared to most other crews that came over) and they won the champs without the need to win it by power, a feat you won't see happen these days at the UK's.
In the late 90's there were no bboy jams over here thrown by b-boys and catered for b-boys, you had the UK Champs and that was it, a spectators event. And there were some ridiculous decisions going down at the UK's in some years (2000 and 2001 were legendary in the poor decision making).
Now I can feel the hate towards btdu and dyzee from this side of the atlantic! Why so much hate? 'Cos of the judging system? Or because the scene isn't what it used to be like? It's a bit unfair to put the blame soley at one person or event for the current state of a cities scene, we're all in charge of our own destinies. We're all capable of doing something about it.
The scene here has got to a point now over here where there's competitions every week, and not enough jams, thats what I think is missing these days, people preparing too much for comps and forgetting the essence of cyphering and battling like that.
Also, jams need to be held where there is no judging, I was inspired to start putting on events over here due to the horrific decisions that were being made at the UK's plus the fact there was nothing around for the UK B-boys to jam and battle. And my event Beatdown was all about how we used to do it in the 80's, no rules, no judging, we come to jam and battle if you want, let it happen spontaneously.
The UK is now in a state where we have more b-boys and b-girls than we've ever had since the 80's, this has happened only through the hard work of B-boys putting on jams, it's been our own work that has got us this far, we're still playing catch up to the rest of the top b-boy nations, but we still look on T.O as a place of Style, it still gets looked upto but most b-boys over here don't know of dope T.O and Canadian b-boys and crews like Crazy Smooth, Tango, Pieces, Deadly, IllMatics etc because we don't see footage of them and they don't travel to events where they will be exposed.
My summary is that the scene needs both the comps and the raw jams, with the amount of comps there are right now, judging needs to be addressed in a big way, I think the judging system has a place in the big comps if its implemented right (meaning you need the right judges doing the right categories), but you need the smaller events where you can have that freedom to just jam and let battles kick off as and when they do, a lot of nu skool b-boys are all geared up to battle in comps (they have the strategies all worked out) but don't know how to battle (or even jam for that matter) in a raw cypher. The UK isn't so bad but you go to places like Germany of France and T.O heads would be f**kin appalled, no tops, no style, just people walking in and trying a move, quite often @#%$ it up and walking out. There are problems with b-boying all over the place, not just in T.O and not just in the UK!
And if you ain't happy with something, then do something about it, thats what I did, and I helped (along with other UK heads like Kilo, Suspence and the Monkey Basket Crew) to create a re-birth of UK B-boying and give b-boys belief in that we're in control of our own scene.
It's in your own hands, and thanks for reading if you made it this far!
Increase The Peace
M-Phatic
Force 10
Re: ?
i have talked about this to many people who have been in the scene a long time
from what people used to tell me...i was never really exposed to the scene before 99....but i was told a lot of the crews always stuck to themselves....that at jams crews would keep to their own circles and when others would step in they would battle them
it seems to me like there was segregation within just the bboy scene itself too...and people watching that...the younger people would learn from it....were influenced to act a certain way
like i said i was never present at the time so if someone wants to correct my view on it, please do.
Tango that was a very insightful post, thank you for sharing. I wish more of the older heads would get on here and share some insight every now and then.
It doesnt have to be all the time but it would give those younger people who cant make it to events or practices and are starting out a place to ask questions. It certainly wont help the scene 100% but it would be a start.
It seems 416 is one of the last remaining events that unites all elements to the fullest.
Tango drop me an email: scrambledlegs39@hotmail.com I would like to talk to you about a few things more in private
word
yo tango I'm really glad you decided to post your opinions up on here....its nice to know that there are others out there who see the problems in our scene..
"disect the phrase "be true to yourself" and hopefully you'll see what i mean. kids need to learn how to disregard the crowd and opinions and make a statement with their dancing. toronto was known for originating madd ishh and that legacy is one that we shouldn't lose. instead of playin this constant game of catch up w/ the world, why not turn the tables and have 'em follow us?"
this quote really helped me put together a bunch of thoughts/frustrations I have when I look at the new generation...I have respect for all the new guys out there because there's gotta be someone to keep this alive, but I really fear that the day that the older guys stop breaking, creativity, flava, and originality will stop as well.
whenever i see these discussions about toronto and going out internationally...everyone is all concerned with catching up in all the categories. "ohhh we have to have better blow ups" or "our power isn't up to snuff we gotta get better at that" I AM NOT SAYING THESE THINGS ARE NOT IMPORTANT....but like frost said earlier....think about WHY you want these types of moves...is it just so you can win win win to impress others or is it so that you can elevate the level of your dancing for yourself? i know with myself my power is pretty much non-existant...and I'm trying to work at it but I could care less about winning some international comp...I just want it for myself so that I can be happy knowing that my style is just a little bit more dynamic...
Hearing that Tango couldn't give above 5 points for originality in Toronto is really really sad for me to hear. Toronto has a great history in original bboy flava and style and character....why wouldn't you take advantage of that? its like you're writing a history paper and totally ignoring the huge national museum down the street from your house...
this "categories" thing in the judging is also bugging me because I see people doing things simply to hit the category. they do a very generic toprock to say they danced, some footwork tricks to say they did footwork, then some power or some blow up and they finish. yeah, you did hit all the categories...but did it look nice?
anyways, i better stop before I get too frustrated. but if anyone out there is reading this and is thinking about changing up their way of thinking....go and talk to the older heads, ask questions, ask for advice...you'l be glad you did because you'l look at this dance in a whole new light. I'm always open to talk if anyone wants to...
........
I have been away from the scene for the last 2 1/2 years.....and by the sounds of it......not much has changed........it's too bad.........Frost if you read this.....HEY MAN!!.......
I'm not from Toronto so I can't really comment on how the scene has changed there. But I can comment on the local scene in Ottawa - although smaller, I feel it is tighter and has an attitude of sharing and learning from each other.
I do believe this is in part because there are a number of old schoolers who stay involved and try to share their passion and knowledge with the younger ones. (Not in a preachy - do it my way approach)
People who know me understand that I'm open minded and don't automatically assume that I need to get respect. But even if you go back and read the thread on Bboy names and tradition - you can see a number of comments that would discourage someone of my generation even offering up any history or tradition as to how things were in the past. Life gets tougher when you roll into full time jobs and have a family to support - and it gets far more difficult to find the time to give back to the community of Bboys and Bgirls - let alone keep dancing yourself.
Yet a number of us fight to find the time for this -because we love this culture. (but then we get discouraged when history and tradition gets disregarded so quickly. ) I have never said things should not evolve and change as this would be crazy - I myself have tried to learn new styles and evolve my own dance. But I do think that the best decisions on things like foundation and old traditions - will be based on informed decisions. How can you have a strong opinion on any of this if you don't know the history behind things - locally and internationally. Unless you just like arguing for the sake of arguing.
Knowledge of any kind makes you stronger - in Bboying and in life. A knowledge of the other elements of Hiphop helps one understand the bigger picture about why this is a beautiful culture - born out of a need for creative survival on many levels - in a world that forgot about inner city youth.
It can touch your spirit in many ways ands shape you as a person if your eyes and heart are open to things.
Personally I'm not big on feeling the need to pick a winner at a competition - as to me - everyone who enters the Cypher is a winner. We are doing our own 3 on 3 at Cypher North with some prize money - which is a compromise for me as I worry that this can change the feel of an event - but honestly what people will remember from our jam will be the raw - open - city battles. Where it doesn't really matter who will win - as the important thing is the memory of the battle itself and the vibe you will take home as a memory.
It shouldn't really matter if you are told by someone else like a judge who is the best that day - what should matter is you being at peace with yourself that you were the best you could be on that day and that you grew from experience in the cypher.
Capitalism sets up a stage in our world where money is king and we become fixated on climbing over others and stomping on them to reach the top. We worry to much about how others rate us. This seems to me to be setting ourselves up to be unhappy. If we focus on our own self confidence , spirituality, and a passion to create we will not feel the need to debate endlessly who was the best. The Cypher is a world of theater and self exploration where challenges are made and met - but we too often forget the old saying that what happens in the Cypher - needs to stay in the Cypher .To me a Cypher is a theater of challenges - but it is also a world where energy and passion are shared and built upon. (In another sense it is also a collective art in progress)
The challenge aspect of Bboying keeps it raw and pushes new levels of creativity under an ever-changing environment where the next guys response is unpredictable. (Sort of good training for surviving what life will throw at you. )
I like this aspect of this culture. But once I leave the Cypher there are bigger things to ponder than who won that battle.
Anyway this may of come off as another old man ramble but I think that by revisiting your roots in Toronto you can grow stronger into the future. Change simply for changes sake is seldom a good thing. Its like throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Reflection is a good thing. ( But trying to lay blame is often not. )
Things may have evolved in the Toronto scene with unanticipated consequences - but what counts more is probably where peoples hearts and intentions were in the past. How Toronto moves forward is what really counts.
as a younger head in the game ive gotta say i dont appreciate the mad @#%$ talking going on here. yo dust who exactly are you calling brats with no manners eh? but whatver weve made our decision and our style is our style, well just see yall on the dance floor.
Re: ?
umm the only thing i can think of with why we dont make an impact is because most of the up and comming bboys are doing the same moves that everyone on bboyworld is doing....and that doesnt make any impact cuz its been done
Re: ?
hey tango, nice analysis... But one thing I must point out is that the same thing happened over the last 5 years all over the USA as well. It has been a global shift towards competition and "moves" more than dancing and getting down in jams and cyphers.
I think the internet played a huge part. I talked about this before somewhere about how by using the internet and by talking on msg boards, kids out in the burbs can now learn what they "think" is bboying from other kids and from videos, when they are really just learning the evolution of "breakdancing" and the real "bboy" history and attitude and way of dancing still lies with the older generation and whoever they passed it down to.
So the split is not so much old/new gen its more people who learned from people/people who made it up as they went along and learned from the net.
But don't worry, like I said in the other post, a lot of jams these days are being judged by people who know what its about, who aren't letting crews advance that don't follow the real bboy formula.
So while b2du gave a venue for this shift, I wouldn't say it was the cause since this happened everywhere.
Re: ?
"umm the only thing i can think of with why we dont make an impact is because most of the up and comming bboys are doing the same moves that everyone on bboyworld is doing....and that doesnt make any impact cuz its been done"
this leads me to believe that you have never been out of canada
all the competitions lately have been by "all star" canadian crews
so basically there is something wrong
maybe toronto is too limited?
i think there is no impact because nothing has changed
toronto thinks the same method that worked in 1999 will work in 2005
nowadays you have crews like the ones in boston and all over who do everything power style dancing EVERYTHING
and you think you can top that with just style????
the mentality of: do your thing and stop sweating others is totally what i agree on, but i do find myself not acting like that at times, and try to check myself. its not always easy staying on that path.
"all the competitions lately have been by "all star" canadian crews"
trebz your right. think it has a lot to do with crews not pushing it together or just cause people with connections to those events take an allstar team.
guess that will change in time when crews, as crews, start coming out big like btx did and making their own international connections. gotta have that crew love baby!
now the question is, who is gonna step it up, and where is it gonna take us as a city?
-ops.dm
um...
i wrote a better way uv this but i forgot my password...soo check it . let me try rememebr..
as i see is why do u ppl hate on us for being different i grew up and had favourites from here JESTER ,TANGO, PUZZLES ,DYZEE etc but i must make my point.
y do u fuckin hate on ur soo hard ?
when u ur self have tried to b diff, don't tell me that u aint look at ur style and how u changed ru self to become someone thats stands out. r u gonna hate someone hu sees the same path?!?! just we do it wit tricks and originality and style. @#%$ my power has originality in it i wont airflair withought like tappin my legs or threading it! @#%$ I DON"T EVEN POWER COMBO, some uv these ppl i just listed have power too. y aint they usin it? and why did they have it .sure they had it from b4 then seen footwork as a style but y da @#%$ did some uv them come back from da states and work on just power alone?wut sign were they givin..?
i just feel soo shocked that some ppl i admire for being diff had fallen to belive that they r no longer diff. *this goes to a certain someone on da list* like honestly man how cud u say something like we r like just bboyworld breakers?? @#%$ man i had respect for u ... we aint tryin to just trick we have it all and plenty uv u bigged us up at jams or just on da streets when we see u "nice dancin" "nice footwork and style" " yo man i love da way u r being vercitile wit ur shyt du never let someone tell u dif" yo i got to rep events now wit my fav bboy * jester * it was an honour and i will never lose respect for him, he is vercitile and he never lets any one tell him he has no foundation or he can't power or he is limited @#%$ dat he is da shyt, HE HAS EVRYTHING now y can't ppl see change like dat we aint tryin to make a korea within canada! we just think its best we all learn tricks and power to add to our dope style and shyt. come on if some uv the best style heads in here had it dun u think its a sign .
PCE out respect to jesse and others hu r true to being diff. jester knows i don't just do tricks and also dirty dale. dyzee. skittles. benzo.. even fawkin ppl from holland dat were at cvc and machine respect to him thanks for da comment man i wont stop dancin...(boy can he dance) and reaction as well. just cause wut we did once or a lil more doesn't make us limited we use evrything and i think its a sick idea for us all to learn evrything or if not dun fuckin hate on someone if u cannot do the shyt they can..
it may only appear to u as we just have ticks btu that just soo happens to b the shyt we r workin on. since u r shuttin us down from chances to rep a team "cause we r too small and might not know history" we jsut so happen to mwant to break way stronger to b that team , ur negativity against us is only makin us stronger .. i shud thank u for that. but never ever say we aint bboys!!
i think we r more then bboys to b discriminated against and styll keep in the game and keep to our shyt and keep learnign evrything...
Re: um...
i must now thank nonsense for making that slightly more comprehendable post. hope this trend of his continues.
also, just wondering did tango straight up say ILLMANNERS, or you guys just reacting to him saying younger generation and thinking he's talking bout u in paticular? from what i got, he was talkin in more general terms. maybe im wrong.
Re: um...
well i and my crew are part of the "New Generation" yes the new generation that gets treated like we are nothing. We AINT BBOYWORLD breakers just cause we don't wanna b just strickly footwork doesn't make us the enemy where does it say that if your from canada you must footwork only if thats in the LAW then @#%$ i'll stop.
all i knwo is canada is multicultural haha so why can't our breaking b that way . why all of a sudden evryone has to hate?
*we do, do footwork! soo stop seeing evrything one side and see it our way for once open ur fuckin ears for once and we will have some kinda agreement eventually stop thinkin we want to b korea or germany... we fuckin wanna have something on them besides just footwork ... all these countries are gaining style and footwork so why can't we just gain some tricks and power too* its only a matter of time till they get mad dope at it!!
if ur sayin dat power and tricks r soo bboyworld then get out of your fuckin "backtotheunderground world" open up and try new things other then hate on the ppl who don't wanna b one sided, and have a love for all the aspects of bboying!!
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