Denzel as Hannibal/Blacks in Ancient Epics
Denzel as Hannibal/Blacks in Ancient Epics
Vin Diesel or Denzel? Who'd make a better Hannibal? I found this on
africana.com:
Denzel As Afrocentrist Hannibal
July 17, 2002
LOS ANGELES, Jul 17, 2002 (United Press International via COMTEX) -
- Press reports that 20th Century Fox is considering making an epic
movie starring Denzel Washington as Hannibal -- not the cannibal, but
the North African general who led his war elephants over the Alps to
surprise ancient Rome by attacking from the north -- are reviving
controversies over Afrocentrism and just how "ethnically correct"
movies need to be.
Washington is one of Hollywood's most honored and consistently
profit-generating leading men. Washington can "open" a movie big and
with the kind of budget this costume war movie would require, that's
a crucial consideration.
Washington is black. But, what was Hannibal?
After many decades in which white actors played non-white
characters, such as John Wayne's curious portrayal of the Mongolian
Genghis Khan in 1956's "The Conqueror," should non-whites like
Washington now play ancient figures who were probably Caucasian, such
as Hannibal? How important is it for actors to racially match their
characters?
Hollywood will have to come up with some solution to the
complications that Afrocentrism and other forms of identity politics
pose for the casting of ancient epics, because a huge number of these
sword-and-sandal films are being planned. The box-office success of
the Oscar-winner "Gladiator" and the 30 percent increase in revenue
over the last two years have combined to allow Hollywood's more macho
and grandiose moguls, directors, and stars to seriously propose
filming some of their favorite role models -- the conquerors of the
ancient world.
These include at least four potential Alexander the Great
projects and two Julius Caesars. The latter might raise the hugely
controversial issue of the race of Caesar's lover Cleopatra.
One thing to keep in mind about rumored Hollywood productions,
though, is that after all is said and done, a lot more is said than
done. Southern California is full of respected, veteran screenwriters
driving S-class Mercedes who have never had one of the numerous
scripts they've sold actually made into a movie.
Meanwhile, Revolution Studios is trying to beat Washington's
Hannibal with its own biopic of the Carthaginian military genius who
posed the gravest threat to Rome in its first thousand years of
existence. It would feature Vin Diesel, the action star of "The Fast
and the Furious."
Diesel doesn't like to discuss his racial background in detail,
other than to say, "I am truly multiracial. When people view me they
don't necessarily see a black man," he notes.
To some Afrocentrists, Hannibal ranks not far behind Cleopatra
as a black hero. Since 1975, Anhueser-Busch has been promoting its
corporate image in the African-American community by commissioning
and distributing portraits of "The Great Kings and Queens of Africa."
These attractive and forceful paintings include a Hannibal who is
depicted as even blacker than Washington. In the beer company's view,
Hannibal more closely resembled Michael Clarke Duncan, the imposing
6'5" African-American actor who earned an Oscar nomination for "The
Green Mile."
In contrast, non-Afrocentrists interested in the classical
world have generally not reacted enthusiastically to the rumors that
Washington might play Hannibal.
Mary Lefkowitz, a leading classicist from Wellesley, and author
of the anti-Afrocentrist bestseller "Not Out of Africa," told UPI
that Hannibal "came from one of the elite families of Carthage; his
ancestors were settlers from Phoenicia (in modern day Lebanon),
Semites like other peoples in that area of the world. They spoke
Phoenician, a Semitic language."
Carthage was a colony founded by the Phoenicians in what is now
modern Tunisia, which is only about 125 miles southwest of Sicily.
Philippe Gouillou, a French evolutionary psychologist who spent the
last two years in that North African country, laughingly commented
about his former hosts, who aren't always terribly sensitive toward
diversity, "I imagine Tunisians would hate Hannibal being considered
as a black African."
Indeed, in the depictions of Hannibal on Carthaginian coins, he
appears to be a strong, handsome Semitic white man. Of course,
ancient artworks weren't always perfectly realistic.
Salim George Khalaf, a North Carolinian of Lebanese origin who
runs the informative Phoenicia.org Web site, commented, "Although
Washington is a great actor, for him to play Hannibal would be joke."
On the other hand, as Lefkowitz noted, "Of course, the
Phoenician colonists could have intermarried with native African
peoples."
Richard Poe is a white conservative political pundit. He wrote
a sophisticated Afrocentrist book called "Black Spark, White Fire,"
which argued against Lefkowitz's view that the ancient Egyptians had
very little influence on Greek culture. Poe said, "Nobody really
knows to what extent the Phoenicians did or did not intermarry with
Africans during the hundreds of years that followed the colonization
of Carthage." He suggested, "For this reason, it is possible that
Hannibal might have resembled either Diesel or Washington, but it's
perhaps more probable that he resembled Diesel."
Still, the indigenous people of Africa's northern coast west of
the Nile were largely white. (Today, the U.S. Census Bureau
classifies individuals of North African descent as white.) The
largest North African ethnic group of that time was the Berbers, many
of whom would appear to be closer to Europeans than to Africans.
Yet, there are also other Berbers tribes who have some clear
sub-Saharan black admixture. Further, there are some quite black
occupational castes in North Africa, such as the blacksmiths. When
exactly the bulk of these admixtures took place is hard to say.
The Nile provided an easy road from the equator through the
Sahara desert to the Mediterranean, a route that has continued in
modern times.
Yet, crossing the arid central Sahara to Carthage was much
harder, especially before the domestication of the camel.
The racial diversity of North Africans offers the more erudite
Afrocentrists a clever response. If you use the old American "one
drop of blood rule" for defining who is black, then you could argue
that there is a strong probability that Hannibal was "black" in the
Jim Crow sense of having at least one black ancestor somewhere in his
family tree.
The passions these kind of questions arouse make casting
politically delicate.
Many theatre companies these days use colorblind casting. For
example, the prominent Goodman Theatre in Chicago blithely cast a
black actor as a 17th-century Italian cardinal in Bertolt
Brecht's "Galileo."
Film is a rather different medium, however, and moviemakers
obsess over whether actors would look right to audiences during close-
ups. As fans travel more and become more sophisticated about how
different peoples from around the world look, this puts added
pressure on casting.
The more ethnically correct the casting tries to be, the
narrower the talent pool it can draw from. Lebanese-American actors
who would be perfect as Carthaginian aristocrats include the
distinguished F. Murray Abraham, the Oscar winner for "Amadeus," and
the respected Tony Shalhoub ("Monk" on the USA Network). Yet, both
are probably a little too old for the sword-swinging Hannibal, so
they'd be better for supporting roles.
Hollywood has a long tradition of using stars to portray
ancient North Africans who, like Diesel, are hard to pin down
racially. The exotic European and Mongolian Yul Brynner made a
striking Pharaoh in "The Ten Commandments," and wrestler The Rock
(who is Samoan and black) was a likable hero in "The Scorpion King."
Poe argued, "Using racially ambiguous stars in some roles is
not only a reasonable precaution, but also probably gives a
relatively accurate picture of how many people in ancient North
African societies looked."
Several ancient world enthusiasts, who objected to Washington
as Hannibal, approved of Diesel in the role. Khalaf of the Center for
Phoenician Studies enthused over the star of the upcoming "XXX, "Vin
Diesel is the absolute best choice for playing Hannibal. He looks
very Mediterranean."
Name: Guyver
Height: 174 cm
Weight: 261 kg
Weapons: high sensitivity perceptor, high frequency vibration sword, gravity control grobe, infrared rays laser shooter, mega smasher, pressure cannon
Re: Denzel as Hannibal/Blacks in Ancient Epics
I would like to see KEITH HAMILTON COBB play Hannibal with that command voice he has on "Andromeda." This is the role for him. He even have the bead. You know I want them to tell the story of Hannibal the way the true North Africans told it, Not Hollywood. Now Denzel can take on this role because he can play any role. Hannibal himself said that he didn't like the way the Romans treated him, he said they called him names. IN Fact, they called him a cannibal eating person, Now That sounds racist to me, it was only one race over in Africa they called Cannibals. Wasn't it some tribe over there? Which I'm not claming cannibal eating. I really don't care who plays Hannibal, as long as they tell it right because it has been a lot of cover up over in Africa.
Why Get Upset
The thing is it might have been more likely the dude was biracial looking or even white etc. Even if this is true who cares it's not like we don't have stories such as Sundiata Kieta, Kankan Mansa etc.
If Denzel wants to make a movie about ancient/medieval
Africa, there's more than enough to choose from.
end of the 18th Dynasty Egypt, Amenhotep III thru Tutankhamun.
Not only is this Egypt at its height of power, but
its one heck of a story! You got a pharaoh who chooses
a common wife (Tiye) who eventually rises to be co-regent
of the kingdom; you got the heretic king Akhenaten;
you got the boy king Tut who might have been murdered
to get the throne. its got love, sex, political
intrigue and murder. can u ask for more?
Sundiata or Mansa Musa of Mali. Sundiata's story is
a perfect tale---an empire being born, a powerful
enemy, an unlikely boy who would be king, a love story
and more. And as its also a famous epic, it can easily
cross over into fantasy. Then there's Mansa Musa,
complete with the expansion of the Mali empire,
a legendary hajj to Mecca and more.
Qudit of Ethiopia. Warrior queen who attacks Axum
Ethiopia, puts the "Solomonid" dynasty off the
throne, wreaks havoc. There's not much known about
Qudit, but she got one heck of a story you can
embellish on there.
Anything in medieval Axum. Jes write a story and
set it in the region. Medieval Axum was a meeting
place of "exotic" cultures from India to China to
Arabia further within Africa. There are 101 tales
to be told there.
Taharka or Shabaka of Kush/Nubia. You can start of with
Shabaka sending troops to help out the Hebrews to Taharka's
fight for Egypt against the Assyrians.
A Kentakee of Kush/Nubia. Who can resist a movie about
a female warrior pharaoh who goes up against the Romans?
Throw in a love story, talk about how she loses her
eye in a military campaign against a Roman garrison,
voila!
Songhai- there's so much politics and intrigue going
on here, I dont' know where to begin. With folks like
Askia Toure or Sonni Ali, you got a heck of a story
to tell.
Malik Ambar of India- Ethiopian slave who ends up as
the Muslim Mugul (sultan/king)---now that's a movin'
up the ladder kinda thing.
So far the best African biopic I seen was Shaka Zulu...
and that was made by the South African government!
Somebody can stand to do it again. (if u can remake
Scanners and justify it without gettin struck by
lightening by whatever gods may be, u can remake
Shaka Zulu).
Others: Nzingah, Amina, Asantewaa, Alfonso I and
Samoy Toure (personal pick!), Tenkamenin.
And there's alot more... The always ambigious,
late on the scene and hotly contested Hannibal
and Cleopatra are not worth the headache, IMHO.
nuartjazz
Unregistered User
(9/9/02 12:41 am)
I disagree
TVwriter23:
I totally disagree with you. As a screenwriter, one should care if the person you are writing about is what they are in all phases. Especially, if you are writing about history or nonfiction. History is about facts, not speculation. Just ask any native American Indian whose most greatest Chieftains were played in movies by Caucasian and Jewish actors. There is more documented history that points to Hannibal as being black, then white. Whites and Europeans have distorted history throughout the ages. We as African American screen writers must stay true to the facts of history when we write, and will write in the future. This should apply to all writers. We have the freedom now to research for the absolute truth or get close as we can to the facts when writing about history. Today, we have the opportunity to write about anything we please. Weather, we chose to write fantasy, fiction, nonfiction or about any genre. But, when we do write, lets be true to form and pen it right. Why compromise the fact that the greatest general of all time more than likely was black in the eyes of the Romans.
Peace,
Walter Hubbard
"Time passes only to give us opportunity to change who we really were, for we can never alter the future scripted by God." -- Walter Hubbard
Gladiatornz
Unregistered User
(1/17/03 7:42 am)
Hannibal was NOT "black"!!
Sorry to burst the bubble of some of the members of this forum, but I have a few points:
* Hannibal was Phoenician, who were from modern Lebanon and spoke a form of Hebrew. The Phoenicians were the ruling caste of Carthage who had migrated there in the first millenium BC. They were massively outnumbered by the native Libyans and very much ruled over the locals, who indulged in semi-frequent rebellions (a particularly pertinent example being after the First Punic War c.237 BC when the Libyans almost topled the ruling elite who had to draft in Spaniards, Gauls and even Italians to defeat them). Indeed, in a very status and caste conscious society, Hannibal was of the greatest family in the city and it is not thought by Ancient Historians that Hannibal had any local blood. Rather, the elite married between themselbes - to marry outside your caste would disgrace you, your family and your descendents. It would be fair to say that Hannibal included blacks in his army that defeated the Romans, but ridiculous to say that he was 'black'.
* Contrary to popular myth Cleopatra was Greek (that is, Caucasian). When Alexander the Great conquered Egypt he installed a new government, and after his death Ptolemy the Great assumed power. His direct descendents were all of Greek blood, based in Alexandria (closer to Greece, you see). Infact, they even spoke Greek - Cleopatra was the first in her blood line to be able to speak the native tongue.
Hope this clears some things up.
Vin Diesel would look closer to the real Hannibal.
-Ancient History Stage III student
Gladiatornz
Unregistered User
(1/17/03 8:02 am)
Some other points...
A lot of mis-information is spread by the far right and far left. I have copied & pasted the following as I couldn't be bothered writing it from scratch! At any rate, it presents a very basic overview of why the following North African races are not considered "black" by learned people: Egyptians, ancient Ethyopians, Nubians, Phoenicians, Moors.
EGYPTIANS
The Egyptians were—and still are for the most part—North African Hamites, meaning Mediterranean white. Linguistic, genetic, anthropological and artistic evidence supports this thesis (visit the The Ancient Egypt Race Issue for details). Yet Afrocentrists dismiss the overwhleming evidence against them as borne out of racism because it was determined by white people at a time when black inferiority was presupposed. Nevermind that it's corroborated by modern scientists and academics, most of whom share the leftist leanings of our times.
Finally, in order to account for the light, Caucasian appearance of modern Egyptians, black academics claim that those people are descendants of later Arab invaders, and that the few Negroid Egyptians are remnants of the native inhabitants. However, genetic studies show that "Arabs who invaded North Africa...in the 7th century A.D. did not substantially contribute to the gene pool" (Gomez-Casado et al., 2000), making it much more likely that those few black people in Egypt are descendants of later migrants from farther south, and that the remaining majority are descended from native Hamitic stock with minor Semitic admixture.
Another more recent argument for the black origins of Egyptian culture is rooted in the fact established in 1909 that predynastic Upper Egyptians (from the south) had some black admixture. More moderate Afrocentrists have claimed, based on this, that the culture that became Egyptian proper had its roots among these mixed peoples and then spread to "whiter" Lower Egyptians (from the north). However, the premise of this theory was long ago discredited by A. Batrawi and G. M. Morant in Biometrika, Vol. 34, No. 1/2. (Jan., 1947), pp. 18-27:
"The observation that there were two races in Egypt in the early dynastic period was first made in the year 1909, when the results of measurements obtained from a series of male and female skulls of the 4th and 5th dynasties from the great necropolis surrounding the pyramids of Giza came to be examined and compared with crania from early predynastic graves. Until then the theory of an unbroken evolution of the Egyptian race from prehistoric times through the dynastic period had been taught. It now became obvious that the culture which we know as peculiarly Egyptian was associated with a race which could not have been derived from the predynastic people. The introduction of stone-working resulting in the erection of great tombs and statuary, as well as beautifully executed reliefs, paintings and above all writing, all pointed to a race far in advance of the predynastic people, who although skilled in the making of bowls and vases in stone as well as in pottery, and who had already attained to the discovery of the uses of copper, were, nevertheless, little removed from the Neolithic period."
Becareful about that Skull Science
Becareful about that skull identification that is used though. Most of that was started by biased scientists. There are some skulls that have Africoid features, but are white etc.
Re: Becareful about that Skull Science
One question Gladiatornz,
Of what persuasion are you?
These people were Black, history has proven that, and now you want to show this "evidence" that they were not?
Please, the skulls and all that other information was, and can be faked - look at the Shroud of Turin mystery.
Whites have covered up the fact that the entire planet was first inhabited by dark races - it was in Newsweek, covered long ago by bigger article grabbing more attention, but I still have it somewhere, and will find that "evidence" too.
But for now, before this discussion gets out of hand, let me just say something that has worked effectively on all the boards I'm on, been at, checked out, etc... they keep religion, race and politics off these discussion boards.
We are writers, trying to write and get better at doing that... and hopefully sell something; there are boards for such things as political beliefs and all, and feel free to frequent them, if you wish such debate, but this is a writing forum, remember?
Denzell would make a great Hanibal. He has the presence and range.
Re: Becareful about that Skull Science
Denzel has two things that Vin does not have which give him more validity as an proven actor who can both do justice to the role, as well as bring in people to the box office to view the film. OSCARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
JustinoIV
Unregistered User
(2/21/03 3:09 am)
north africans
The current North Africans tend to be caucasian. There are some blacks in those countries, and if one looks at many of the people, they would best be considered mixed race. Look at mulattoes in the US, Central and South America, and you'll see common traits. What being said, I agree what geocities site said, the North Africans are mostly caucasian. Look at people like Saddam Hussein, does he not look Greek or Italian?
As for what the race of Cleopatra, she was cleary of Greek descent.
How did the ancient North Africans portray themselves? They tended to paint themselves light ,but I have seen paintings of various colors.
If you take nations like the Sudan, the southern sudanese are examples of what the true black africans look like. THose people are very dark, many of them blue black. The Northern Sudanese are mixed race. While the typical North African is about 10% black African, the further South you go the higher the percentange of black African.
Africa is basically a creation of the European colonialists, has you have several racial/linguistic groups that had nothing in common with each other. Among "black" Africans, you have at least three major racial groups. The Bantus, the Niger-Congo people, and Khosian Bush people. The North Africans always, due their proximity to Europe, had high caucasian elements.
I think this arguement gets heavily into the politics of race.
For instance, how is Halle Berry "black" snd a North African darker than her white? Halle Berry's mother is white, and if her father had any European ancestry, she is mostly caucasian. In the movie Monster's Ball, compared to the other black people she even looked white. Ditto for Vanessa Williams, who is largely European.
So it seems like at least some of the confusion is that people are holding the race of people in the US to the old one drop rule, while using a more liberal definition for other people.
JustinoIV
Unregistered User
(2/21/03 3:17 am)
what Mr. Washington should consider
I personally am tired off thos obsession of some black Americans with the North Africans.
There are pletny of subsaharan civilations who have excellent stories that would make good movies, from old Mali, Songhai, Ghana, old Oyo, Axum, Great Zimbawe, etc. I agree, why even bother with Hannibal and Cleopatra, when we have so many other interesting stories of people who were clearly black?
With that being said, you always had people of different races in Tunisia, and as we have no pictures of Hannibal, I have no problem with Washington playing him.
North Africans
<The current North Africans tend to be caucasian.>
So. That's know, but what about way back when? It could have looked very different than today. You can't always go by what something is or looks like now.
North Africa
Was always easily accessible by the Europeans and by Asians/ Look at Egypt, one can walk across the Sinai penisula and enter it from Asia/
The ancient Egyptians painted themselves similiar to what the modern North Africans look like.
So even then, a good number of the population had considerable caucasian ancestry.
anonymous
Unregistered User
(3/11/03 1:34 am)
Racial Myths and other eurocentric mendacities
First and foremost Ancient so called Egyptians and the overwhelming majority of "North Africans" were NOT and are not White. Race is a social construct primarily based upon phenotype promulgated by eurocentric and colonized mindsets.
I do not have time to get into HLA and other genetic markers here, but suffice to say that many of the folks who have come in here expousing the european myth of White North Africans have a history of attempting to hold onto the rapidly dying Myths.
Berbers are not white, since Africans are the most diverse looking people of course there are many different phenotypes. These people try to claim that the Khoisan (!Kung) pejoratively known as Bushman are not African but Asian back migrants. They try to claim the Massi and Watusi as "Dark whites" and the Fulani of Nigeria as white or mixed.
Hell even the lebanese example of Tony Shaluab is not a white man. During Jim Crow he would have been beaten for looking at a white water fountain. Ancient Egyptians (Kemetics) were clearly Black/Afrikan and their modern day descendents such as the Fellahin are also clearly Black/Afrikan.
If one wants to talk about proximity lets talk about Nubia/Sudan. These people shared and often ruled Kemet. They built pyramids and are clearly what is seen as Black/Afrikans. Nilotic peoples have a much greater "accessibility" to "Egypt". BTW the origin of term Egypt is Greek for brown face.
The false ammunition eurocentrics/colonized folks use is the misconeption of Arabic rules. The Arabs were recent invaders into these Kingdoms. The great Sa_Rahs (usually mistakenly referred to as Pharoahs) , temples and dynastys existed thousands of years before the invasion of Arabs and the European Hyskos.
Finally, as to specific entities such as Hannibal he was in all probability not only a Black/Afrikan but much closer in appearance to Denzel than to Vin Diesel or Micheal Clarke Duncan for that matter. Cleopatra the 8th, quite over rated and did indeed have Ptolemic mixture but also had Black/Afrikan mixture. Although she was Black/Afrikan she was no great statesman or beauty. I personally find her story unremarkable and believe Nefertiti who was undeniably Black/Afrikan, Beautiful, and politically intriguing a better subject.
Anyone who is sincere with doubts I can post a link to a couple of sites that will give solid academic references. The other folks may suffer their ignorance because they clearly want to keep eurocentric/colonized myths alive.
well
"Berbers are not white, since Africans are the most diverse looking people of course there are many different phenotypes. These people try to claim that the Khoisan (!Kung) pejoratively known as Bushman are not African but Asian back migrants. They try to claim the Massi and Watusi as "Dark whites" and the Fulani of Nigeria as white or mixed."
Berbers are often, not always, as white as any European. And if you hold on to the belief that the African Rift Valley is the origin of humanity, then everyone is "African".
Realistically and honestly, after various people migrated out of Africa to other parts of the world, others came and migrated back in.
Why is this so difficult to accept? Various Asian merchants traded with various African Kingdoms long before the Europeans arrived on the scene. While this does not mean that the Asians are responsible for those African civilizations like some idiots have suggested, it does mean that the two influenced each other.
As for the current North Africa, long before modern colonialism the Europeans were there. You had the Greeks, the Romans, the Vandals(a Germanic people), the Byzantines, and then the Ottoman Turks. So no one can deny that have had substantial white presence in North Africa for quite sometime. That does not mean that are the original people, but they have certainly been there for while.
As for a Lebanese not being able to drink from a water fountain in the South, you must realize that different countries conceptualize race differently from the old South. Plenty of whites that I know in the summer time tan as dark as me, and brag about their dark skins. To a fair skinned Anglo Saxon from the old South, these people might have been called black as well. That doesn't mean they are. Just because old Southerners saw something one way, doesn't make it so.
A lot of Lebanese, Syrians, Egyptians, Moroccans Iraqis, etc, look just like Italians, Greeks, or Turks. There was considerable mixing of people on both sides of the Mediterrean. So the North Africans certainly have a lot of European, while the Meditterean whites certainly have a lot of Arab/North African.
And today, North Africans are basically indistinguishable from other Arabs. As for groups like the Hausa and the Fulani, they are indeed part Arab, languages like Hausa, Amharic, Somali are very closely related to Arabic.
Also keep in mind that Africa is a creation of the colonialist. You've very diverse linguistic groups even among subsaharan Africans. The Niger-Congo peoples have nothing to with Bantus, lingustically or religously, and ditto for the Khosian people.
Asia as well is a creation of the colonialist. And actually, since Africa, Asia, and Europe all one landmass, it is arguably the same continent.
With that said, I still say Wahsington would make an excellent Hannibal, regardless of what he looked like. Chances are he did not look as white as Michael Douglas(that would have been impossible in that strong desert sun!)
townkid
Unregistered User
(3/16/03 1:44 am)
yo
if you go to yahoo and type.. queens and kings of africa.. hannibal is a black man not a white man.. see alot of whites including the racism they require towards blacks and denial of blacks being dominate.. see USA lied for 100's of years to this world that the greatest figures in history were white.. but they were actually black.
Hannibal
As much as I admire those site we don't know what some of those folx really looked like. And just like you saying all that stuff was created by the white man yada yada. The same could be said for the black sites as well.
anonymous
Unregistered User
(3/17/03 6:01 pm)
Peer edited articles
As to the veracity of what I posted I encourage people to check out folks such as Diop, John Henrik Clarke, Van Sertima, Soy Keita and Obenga to start. Some are indeed afrocentrics but their references and scholarship are impunible.
Edited by: 
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