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The Faithful Knights of Christ > Christian Discussion > Fossil foolishness |
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NUHERE
Private First Class Posts: 28 (7/24/02 8:00 pm) Reply |
Fossil foolishness I think it was Rocker that was curious as to why I accept the theory of evolution. Follow the link below to read just one article. I will be posting on more subjects. If anyone would like to challenge me with a specific subject why creation is superior and believable let me know. As always you can prove or disprove whatever I post at any good library. home.austarnet.com.au/ste...shness.htm |
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RshScks Master Sergeant Posts: 374 (7/24/02 10:37 pm) Reply |
Re: Fossil foolishness
One in evolution we started as single cell organism, who reproduce asexually, why then was there a need to reproduce through the exchanging of genes? It takes more energy, and energy is one thing that the first organisms (if you follow evolution) could afford to waste. Where did this abundance of food come from in the beginning? Where they carnivorous? A book you should look into reading that was made by a rocket scientist who was an atheist who was looking to prove God did not exist, but then became a Christian after doing his research. Answer me one question if you can, what was the last recorded species to go through evolution, and I will define evolution for you, it is the change in the genetic make-up of a population over a period of time, hence the population means in a centralized group, which means it is pretty specific, so please give me the last species that was recorded to go through evolution?
"The principle runs through all life from top to bottom. Give up yourself, and you will find your real self. Lose your life and you will save it. Submit to death, death of your ambitions and favorite wishes everyday and death of your whole body in the end: submit with every fiber of your being, and you will find enternal life. Keep back nothing. Nothing that you have not given away will ever really be yours. Nothing in you that has not died will ever be raised from the dead. Look for yourself, and you will find in the long run only hatred, loneliness, despair, rage, ruin, and decay. But look for Christ and you will find Him, and with Him everything else thrown in." -C.S. Lewis "Mere Christianity" |
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NUHERE
Private First Class Posts: 32 (7/25/02 5:56 pm) Reply |
fossil I don't have an answer to your question. I don't think it is required, as it probably just is. You see that is the problem with theists. If they don't have an answer by default it means God did it or is responsible for it. For me , like many other things in mans history we just don't have the answer for it yet. Do you realize how many things in the past were tied to either God or Satan? If that is a quote from Lewis, let me remind you that he was just a man and that is his opinion. There is nothing there that has any evidence. All I can say is that if he converted from Atheism to Christianity he was never an atheist in the first place. |
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SirNukes
Cow Master Posts: 1822 (7/26/02 1:06 pm) Reply |
Re: fossil "You see that is the problem with theists. If they don't have an answer by default it means God did it or is responsible for it." Honostly, all things can be traced back to God if he did indeed create the universe. I have yet to learn something that had an answer different than God. Why, you wonder? Well, you wonder that because you have stereotyped Christians as saying "God brought that tornado" or "God makes the Earth rotate," when in fact Christians recognize God's intelligence and know that his creation is perfectly capable of running on its own. No, I don't say "God makes the three fundemental forces work," but instead say "God created the three fundemental forces, perhaps tying them into something else which we haven't discovered yet." Besides, atheists default to "that's the way things are, we just don't know why." =p Not very scientific when it comes to matters such as evolution. Going by your logic of rejecting the idea of a god because there's no proof, we should reject evolution because there's also no proof. After all, has anyone documented spontaneous, beneficial genetic mutation in a species which then spread around, allowing the species to become more evolved? Not yet. "If that is a quote from Lewis, let me remind you that he was just a man and that is his opinion. There is nothing there that has any evidence. All I can say is that if he converted from Atheism to Christianity he was never an atheist in the first place." You should read Mere Christianity. You said you are an atheist because of your own thought and reason; Lewis wrote all about thought and reason. In his book, he covers the logic behind that quote. Also, since you might not have realized this, that quote is just Jon's sig and wasn't directed specifically at you. |
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NUHERE
Private First Class Posts: 44 (7/26/02 5:46 pm) Reply |
fossil "Honostly, all things can be traced back to God if he did indeed create the universe" Why? How? Who created God? You say God always was. I say things always were. There is no need to find an answer as to why the wind blows etc. It just does. Some things may never have an answer. However it is to simple to default to God if one doesn't understand or doesn't as yet have an answer. "Ethan Allen, whose capture of Fort Ticonderoga while commanding the Green Mountain Boys helped inspire Congress and the country to pursue the War of Independence, said, "That Jesus Christ was not God is evidence from his own words." In the same book, Allen noted that he was generally "denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian." When Allen married Fanny Buchanan, he stopped his own wedding ceremony when the judge asked him if he promised "to live with Fanny Buchanan agreeable to the laws of God." Allen refused to answer until the judge agreed that the God referred to was the God of Nature, and the laws those "written in the great book of nature." From: Religion of the American Enlightenment by G. Adolph Koch, p. 40 (1968, Thomas Crowell Co., New York, NY.) quoting preface and p. 352 of Reason, the Only Oracle of Man and A Sense of History compiled by American Heritage Press Inc., p. 103 (1985, American Heritage Press, Inc., New York, NY.) |
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SirNukes
Cow Master Posts: 1826 (7/29/02 1:10 pm) Reply |
Re: fossil "Why? How?" If he created everything, he set up all of the rules and set things in motion. There are only two ways to look at things: they either have a beginning or they don't. If they don't, then the universe has been going in an infinite cycle and will continue to do so, which really takes quite a bit of faith. If things do have a beginning, then it much be by the work of some god-force which exists outside of time, and hence needs no beginning. "Who created God? You say God always was. I say things always were. There is no need to find an answer as to why the wind blows etc. It just does. Some things may never have an answer. However it is to simple to default to God if one doesn't understand or doesn't as yet have an answer." My my, have I made progress? Are you finally realizing that science really doesn't explain everything, and never will come up with an excuse for the universe existing without using some sort of god? Personally, though, I like knowing why the wind blows (high/low pressure systems) and would enjoy learning more. You should see me tear it up in physics. =p |
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NUHERE
Lance Corporal Posts: 71 (7/29/02 4:34 pm) Reply |
fossil "If he created everything, he set up all of the rules and set things in motion." Then he walked away and does not get involved in mans affairs. I will say this is a possibilty and explains why we have no evidence for his existance. "There are only two ways to look at things: they either have a beginning or they don't. If they don't, then the universe has been going in an infinite cycle and will continue to do so, which really takes quite a bit of faith." Why? " If things do have a beginning, then it much be by the work of some god-force which exists outside of time, and hence needs no beginning." Why again and who created God? "Are you finally realizing that science really doesn't explain everything, and never will come up with an excuse for the universe existing without using some sort of god?" Science has never claimed to be able to explain everything.Science discovers more every day and they will continue to do so if left unimpeded. Do you realize how much God was responsible for in the past that Science now has an explanation? 'Science has proof without any certainty. Creationists have certainty without any proof.' (Ashley Montague) |
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SirNukes
Cow Master Posts: 1843 (7/31/02 1:55 pm) Reply |
Re: fossil "Then he walked away and does not get involved in mans affairs. I will say this is a possibilty and explains why we have no evidence for his existance." Enjoying deism, aye? Honestly, God doesn't get involved except where there's a benefit to those who seek him. That's about it. "Why?" Think. "Why again and who created God?" Think again and no one is needed. "Science has never claimed to be able to explain everything." Scientists have. "Science discovers more every day and they will continue to do so if left unimpeded." I don't disagree. "Do you realize how much God was responsible for in the past that Science now has an explanation?" You should uncap that "g." |
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NUHERE
Lance Corporal Posts: 91 (7/31/02 6:05 pm) Reply |
fossil "Enjoying deism, aye? Honestly, God doesn't get involved except where there's a benefit to those who seek him. That's about it." Many seek and walk away disappointed.Many don't and are blessed. You have no evidence for your claim. "Science has never claimed to be able to explain everything." "Scientists have." Would you care to list the quote? Scientists are constantly looking for answers and ways to find them. What science can't explain today they will sooner or later. "You should uncap that "g." Are you changing the subject? After looking at some of your grammer "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" LOL Look, now you have me laughing! |
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NUHERE
Lance Corporal Posts: 92 (7/31/02 6:06 pm) Reply |
fossil "Enjoying deism, aye? Honestly, God doesn't get involved except where there's a benefit to those who seek him. That's about it." Many seek and walk away disappointed.Many don't and are blessed. You have no evidence for your claim. "Science has never claimed to be able to explain everything." "Scientists have." Would you care to list the quote? Scientists are constantly looking for answers and ways to find them. What science can't explain today they will sooner or later. "You should uncap that "g." Are you changing the subject? After looking at some of your grammer "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" LOL Look, now you have me laughing! |
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![]() ![]() Posts: 1735 (8/24/02 11:12 pm) Reply |
Re: fossil Concerning the "g" reference, he means that since you don't believe in the one true God, that you should use the lowercase god instead. It's not a grammar thing. Now, since we are talking about fossils, can we mention that scientists have recently found a human skeleton that is older than the "pre-human" skeletons? By pre-human, I mean the so-called bones that stepping-stones leading from ape to human. Also concerning fossils... If you look at other creatures other than human-shaped creatures, you do not see bones bridging the gaps from one species to another or from fish to mammal. The only bones that apparently bridge gaps are with humanoid species (apes, humans, etc.). But none of them actually bridge the gap. They are just species which are part way between human and ape and not actually evolutionary stages. Otherwise all creatures would have such bridging bones and there would be no huge gaps from one to another.
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NUHERE
Staff Sergeant Posts: 210 (8/25/02 5:24 am) Reply |
fossils
Mrhano
"Concerning the "g" reference, he means that since you don't believe in the one true God, that you should use the lowercase god instead. It's not a grammar thing." Just trying not to offend. "Now, since we are talking about fossils, can we mention that scientists have recently found a human skeleton that is older than the "pre-human" skeletons? By pre-human, I mean the so-called bones that stepping-stones leading from ape to human." Your point is? There are always facts to be uncovered. Think of it this way: Instead of finding the wedding cake ready made they found the batter instead. "Also concerning fossils... If you look at other creatures other than human-shaped creatures, you do not see bones bridging the gaps from one species to another or from fish to mammal." I don't think you read the posts and references on transitional fossils. I am not going to repost on that. The evidence is overwhelming and the majority of respected scientists accept the theory as fact. Notice I use the word accept and not beleive. I also use the word "respected" in relation to scientists. Creation scientists don't present any evidence that is credible. That is why they don't offer any work that cab be published in any recognized scientific journal nor offered for review in any recognized scientific community. Your answer will be because science is committed to the evolution theory. My response is that science will point to the evidence at hand . The bottom line comes down to your belief or disbelief vs. the evidence and what we have experienced and observed. This is real. No one has seen God, God has not spoken to anyone, God has not let himself be known to God, there are no experiments or phenomenon that would let one suspect that their is a God. |
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RedClaw ![]() ![]() Posts: 1316 (8/30/02 10:15 pm) Reply |
Re: fossils Hey Nuhere, you ever heard of the first and second law of Thermodynamics? Take a look at how evolution is affected by those and come and talk to us again. It's obvious to me that they cannot be broken naturally, you need divine help.
RedClaw/JJ
"StarCraft is fun" - me |
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NUHERE
Staff Sergeant Posts: 245 (8/31/02 6:49 pm) Reply |
fossils -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Hey Nuhere, you ever heard of the first and second law of Thermodynamics? Take a look at how evolution is affected by those and come and talk to us again. It's obvious to me that they cannot be broken naturally, you need divine help. " I guess the Lord works in mysterious ways. Yes to your question on thermodynamics. I don't think you have. Here is the answer to creationists claim against evolution based on the thermodynamics principals. I will just give you the links as I see no point to pasting. www.americanatheist.org/s...amics.html home.houston.rr.com/bybay..._test.html www.ediacara.org/2lot.html www.2ndlaw.com/evolution.html ================================== Here are some more you might find interesting. my.erinet.com/~jwoolf/gc_intro.html pubs.usgs.gov/gip/geotime/contents.html baby.indstate.edu/gga/pmag/paleosol.htm I hope this keeps you busy for awhile and I hope I don't hve to repond to this subject again. As I said creationists cannot accept evolution because to do so would destroy their belief system. Rule #1 is God did it and when evidence presents the opposite refer to rule #1. |
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RedClaw ![]() ![]() Posts: 1343 (8/31/02 10:51 pm) Reply |
Re: fossils Congratulations, you know what Entropy is! I guess you've just proved your earlier statement, "You say God always was. I say things always were.", to be completely incorrect, as a universe that eternally existed would have died an eternity ago of heat loss. What's the answer now, an impossible 'free lunch'??? This should be interesting. "As I said creationists cannot accept evolution because to do so would destroy their belief system." Not really, considering that I've never ruled evolution out yet I'm a creationist. You seem to enjoy believing that the two cannot co-exist so you can make your lies seem more believable to yourself.
RedClaw/JJ
"StarCraft is fun" - me |
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NUHERE
Gunnery Sergeant Posts: 251 (9/1/02 6:56 am) Reply |
fossils "Congratulations, you know what Entropy is! I guess you've just proved your earlier statement, "You say God always was. I say things always were.", to be completely incorrect, as a universe that eternally existed would have died an eternity ago of heat loss. What's the answer now, an impossible 'free lunch'??? This should be interesting." I don't know where I might have written the statement you said I did but either it was a mistake or satire.You say the universe would have died an eternity ago of heat loss. Why? Obviously it hasn't happened. Just because science doesn't have all the answers doesn't mean God is in back of it. "As I said creationists cannot accept evolution because to do so would destroy their belief system."Red Claw" "Not really, considering that I've never ruled evolution out yet I'm a creationist. You seem to enjoy believing that the two cannot co-exist so you can make your lies seem more believable to yourself.' It depends on what your belief in the bible is like. How far is a Christian willing to alter what is written in order to remain or claim a belief in Christianity and the bible. If the bible is shown to be false on just one area then what else is false and who will decide what is true? |
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RedClaw ![]() ![]() Posts: 1351 (9/1/02 9:22 am) Reply |
Re: fossils "Who created God? You say God always was. I say things always were." There. Here you've claimed the universe always was. So what you said was in error, but I admire the fact that you can acknowledge that...I find it rare for someone to be able to do that. "You say the universe would have died an eternity ago of heat loss. Why? Obviously it hasn't happened." The universe is currently dying of heat loss. Based upon certain models, it would have died off an eternity ago because of the heat loss if it had eternaly existed. As work is done in the universe, avaliable energy to do that work is consumed(converted into other forms anyway), so there is less energy to do other work. This means we have a finite supply of energy. Enternity would indicate infinity, and therefore we would have needed an infinite amount of energy to last since the beginning. "How far is a Christian willing to alter what is written in order to remain or claim a belief in Christianity and the bible. If the bible is shown to be false on just one area then what else is false and who will decide what is true?" Science is an ever evolving field. As one theory is proven wrong are you suggesting that we discard the others?
RedClaw/JJ
"StarCraft is fun" - me |
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NUHERE
Gunnery Sergeant Posts: 263 (9/1/02 10:19 am) Reply |
fossils "The universe is currently dying of heat loss. Based upon certain models, it would have died off an eternity ago because of the heat loss if it had eternaly existed. As work is done in the universe, avaliable energy to do that work is consumed(converted into other forms anyway), so there is less energy to do other work. This means we have a finite supply of energy. Enternity would indicate infinity, and therefore we would have needed an infinite amount of energy to last since the beginning." Maybe , maybe not. I don't see where God comes in and maybe the models don't have all the variables. If the universe is truly dying what does that say of God letting this happen? Secondly what is your definition of the universe? Our galaxy or all of them including the ones we don't know about. I don't think your premise holds water for everything since we don't know how far out the universe goes. "Science is an ever evolving field. As one theory is proven wrong are you suggesting that we discard the others?" Yes ,science does this all time. That is what is great about science, when they find something that is no longer valid they throw it out and accept the new findings. Science is very competitive. When a scientist makes a claim there are many scientists out there looking to debunk the results. There is fame and fortune in doing this and we get true results eventually. |
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RedClaw ![]() ![]() Posts: 1361 (9/1/02 1:35 pm) Reply |
Re: fossils "Maybe , maybe not. I don't see where God comes in and maybe the models don't have all the variables." Ok, now your guilty of breaking your own doctrine. You're not sure, so your leaning towards your own side and saying "this has to be true". So what's wrong with us doing the same thing, saying, "maybe God is up to something"? I think if you can say "the models don't have all the variables" we can at least say that! "If the universe is truly dying what does that say of God letting this happen?" Oh give me a break. The "woe is me" mentality doesn't hold up well in this forum, because frankly we don't believe God intends to make this our own personal paridise. "Secondly what is your definition of the universe? Our galaxy or all of them including the ones we don't know about. I don't think your premise holds water for everything since we don't know how far out the universe goes." I'm using the commonly accepted model of the universe.... "Yes ,science does this all time. That is what is great about science, when they find something that is no longer valid they throw it out and accept the new findings. Science is very competitive. When a scientist makes a claim there are many scientists out there looking to debunk the results. There is fame and fortune in doing this and we get true results eventually." But guys like Luther and Calvin didn't do the same thing to religion???
RedClaw/JJ
"StarCraft is fun" - me Edited by: RedClaw |
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NUHERE
Gunnery Sergeant Posts: 271 (9/2/02 7:06 am) Reply |
fossils Maybe , maybe not. I don't see where God comes in and maybe the models don't have all the variables."Nuhere "Ok, now your guilty of breaking your own doctrine. You're not sure, so your leaning towards your own side and saying "this has to be true". So what's wrong with us doing the same thing, saying, "maybe God is up to something"? I think if you can say "the models don't have all the variables" we can at least say that!" No my comment was made in response to your claims that the universe was cooling etc. I don't think we have the evidence for your claim. "Oh give me a break. The "woe is me" mentality doesn't hold up well in this forum, because frankly we don't believe God intends to make this our own personal paridise" Why do you think that? The bible is very clear that Jesus is coming back here to establish his kingdom. "But guys like Luther and Calvin didn't do the same thing to religion??? " If you want to accept the idea that religion is man made I will accept your point. "I change not sayeth the Lord" |
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RedClaw ![]() ![]() Posts: 1373 (9/2/02 1:00 pm) Reply |
Re: fossils "No my comment was made in response to your claims that the universe was cooling etc. I don't think we have the evidence for your claim." Ok, that's fine. But I'm certain that your atheist websites would agree with me if they are going with currently accepted models of the universe. "Why do you think that? The bible is very clear that Jesus is coming back here to establish his kingdom." Yeah, and in the mean time He doesn't intend to spoonfeed His selfish and whiny creation. What He intends to do is give us a choice, much in the way President Bush gave the countries of the world. "You're either with us, or you're with the terrorists". "If you want to accept the idea that religion is man made I will accept your point. "I change not sayeth the Lord" " I don't recally saying anything about God changing, I said something about worshipping methods changing. Luther revolutionized Christianity, which in it's purest form can be considered as not a religion, but a faith and relationship with Christ because we don't really have any rituals like other religions do.
RedClaw/JJ
"StarCraft is fun" - me |
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