Fossil foolishness

"Sorry, but yes you did. 9/11/02 you said

"You have proved yourself wrong by not showing any evidence for what you believe in.""

Read my post again, then read your previous post. I took that quote from you word for word and responded to it.

"We would need physical evidence that was confirmed independently, writings from those that would be considered genuine, eyewitness accounts from the time in question ,from more than one person."

And we have none of these.....?

"This is no less the situation that Christians find themselves in when they look for the historical evidence of Jesus."

No it isn't.

"No ,people are born without beliefs. Beliefs are taught throughout the world. Theists are not in denile , only misled. Most theists are not aware of the evidence nor are they taught to think. Do some research on MEMES.It is very interesting. Religion is compared to a self replicating virus."

No one's taught not to think, people learn that on their own. Shall I accuse you of the same thing because you use resources as proof and appear not to question their validity? I find it interesting you accuse us of not being able to think simply because we disagree with you. Not everyone makes the same conclusion when given the same evidence. If this were not true, we'd never see a hung jury in a court trial now would we? Just because we don't think just like you doesn't mean we don't think. I hope you'll learn this sometime.

People are also born without the ability to do advanced calculus....doesn't necessarily mean it's a good thing.

"Whos definition of chaos are you going to use?"

Gee I dunno....maybe I'll use Newton's because it was his opinion afterall.

"It is always pointed out that there must be a God because of he order of the universe."

It's not always pointed out. When it comes to the universe, I would not think it's order would be evidence of a divine being in control, but just the sheer complexity of it.

"You're really going to be an engineer?"

Yes, I am, and I find it interesting that you're insulting my ability to apply science and mathematics because I believe in God. If this were the case, we wouldn't be very far in this world, as much of science was founded by theists.

What line of work are you in BTW, just out of curiosity?

RedClaw/JJ
What Would Jesus Do?
Member of -=DoS-United=-

"StarCraft is fun" - me

Edited by: RedClaw at: 9/13/02 5:31:01 pm

Author	Comment
RedClaw Posts: 1469 (9/13/02 5:23 pm) Reply	Re: fossils "Sorry, but yes you did. 9/11/02 you said "You have proved yourself wrong by not showing any evidence for what you believe in."" Read my post again, then read your previous post. I took that quote from you word for word and responded to it. "We would need physical evidence that was confirmed independently, writings from those that would be considered genuine, eyewitness accounts from the time in question ,from more than one person." And we have none of these.....? "This is no less the situation that Christians find themselves in when they look for the historical evidence of Jesus." No it isn't. "No ,people are born without beliefs. Beliefs are taught throughout the world. Theists are not in denile , only misled. Most theists are not aware of the evidence nor are they taught to think. Do some research on MEMES.It is very interesting. Religion is compared to a self replicating virus." No one's taught not to think, people learn that on their own. Shall I accuse you of the same thing because you use resources as proof and appear not to question their validity? I find it interesting you accuse us of not being able to think simply because we disagree with you. Not everyone makes the same conclusion when given the same evidence. If this were not true, we'd never see a hung jury in a court trial now would we? Just because we don't think just like you doesn't mean we don't think. I hope you'll learn this sometime. People are also born without the ability to do advanced calculus....doesn't necessarily mean it's a good thing. "Whos definition of chaos are you going to use?" Gee I dunno....maybe I'll use Newton's because it was his opinion afterall. "It is always pointed out that there must be a God because of he order of the universe." It's not always pointed out. When it comes to the universe, I would not think it's order would be evidence of a divine being in control, but just the sheer complexity of it. "You're really going to be an engineer?" Yes, I am, and I find it interesting that you're insulting my ability to apply science and mathematics because I believe in God. If this were the case, we wouldn't be very far in this world, as much of science was founded by theists. What line of work are you in BTW, just out of curiosity? RedClaw/JJ What Would Jesus Do? Member of -=DoS-United=- "StarCraft is fun" - me Edited by: RedClaw at: 9/13/02 5:31:01 pm
NUHERE Master Sergeant Posts: 357 (9/14/02 5:18 am) Reply	fossils Red "We would need physical evidence that was confirmed independently, writings from those that would be considered genuine, eyewitness accounts from the time in question ,from more than one person."NU "And we have none of these.....?" No! You don't have ANY FIRST HAND EVIDENCE of Jesus outside of the bible. I have already answered the claim of the evidence that measures to about 1/2 the size of a palm print dated to 125 AD. All you have is some writing to linked to John almost a hundred years after the death of Jesus. This is not FIRSTHAND and it is NOT independent of the bible. At best it is part of the bible and that is conceding a lot to you. "This is no less the situation that Christians find themselves in when they look for the historical evidence of Jesus." Nu "No it isn't." Yes it is and I just expained why. "No ,people are born without beliefs. Beliefs are taught throughout the world. Theists are not in denile , only misled. Most theists are not aware of the evidence nor are they taught to think. Do some research on MEMES.It is very interesting. Religion is compared to a self replicating virus."Nuhere "No one's taught not to think, people learn that on their ownI find it interesting you accuse us of not being able to think simply because we disagree with you. Man is not taught not to think, this comes naturally. Can you really deny that the vast majority of churchgoers have not read the bible? Of those that did how many have actually studied it? Of these how many understand it? "Shall I accuse you of the same thing because you use resources as proof and appear not to question their validity?" I have questioned their validity. When they say their isn't any evidence I tried to find some. I can't. So far their claims are rock solid. The evidence that apologists present would not be acceptable in any court of law. "Not everyone makes the same conclusion when given the same evidence. If this were not true, we'd never see a hung jury in a court trial now would we? Just because we don't think just like you doesn't mean we don't think. I hope you'll learn this sometime." You are comparing apples and oranges. What is being compared in your analogy is ones opinion of what has happened. They are being asked to judge intentions of one convicted. They are not being asked to come to a conlusion on such matters that would have a definite answer. Example: Is a consensus really needed to decide if I have two apples and someone gives me two more ,how many apples will I really have? The answer is real and definite. You are still appealing to emotion when you make these claims. I 'm looking for the evidence that is real. Jesus wrote nothing down , historians wrote nothing down, history doesn 't record the miracles, Paul mentions nothing of Jesus earthly life and death, the early church fathers ignored this as well. Only into the second century does the idea of a real Jesus take shape. You want to use ancient pieces of artfacts to prove your case. Why don't you make claims about the dead sea scrolls? Is it perhaps that the time line presented for Jesus ( if it is he they are talking about) is seriously flawed. Not only is the time line flawed but the origins of Jesus are questioned as well. (assuming it is he) If it is not Jesus they are talking about then this is even more compelling to believe that Jesus is a myth brought to life.
RedClaw Posts: 1477 (9/14/02 1:14 pm) Reply	Re: fossils "You are comparing apples and oranges. What is being compared in your analogy is ones opinion of what has happened. They are being asked to judge intentions of one convicted. They are not being asked to come to a conlusion on such matters that would have a definite answer." There is no definite answer here. If there was we'd all agree. No one denies that 2+2=4, so stop trying to make things up again. I find it interesting how you religiously use the same analogy but it's wrong when I do... "Paul mentions nothing of Jesus earthly life and death" So? This "proof" is really really weak.... "Is it perhaps that the time line presented for Jesus ( if it is he they are talking about) is seriously flawed. Not only is the time line flawed but the origins of Jesus are questioned as well. (assuming it is he) If it is not Jesus they are talking about then this is even more compelling to believe that Jesus is a myth brought to life." Sure... "Man is not taught not to think, this comes naturally. Can you really deny that the vast majority of churchgoers have not read the bible? Of those that did how many have actually studied it? Of these how many understand it?" I never denied that. Going to Church on Sunday does not make you a Christian. "I have questioned their validity. When they say their isn't any evidence I tried to find some. I can't. So far their claims are rock solid. The evidence that apologists present would not be acceptable in any court of law." And you make the assumption I never did. Besides, atheists.org believes in pro-avis...how rock solid is that? "No! You don't have ANY FIRST HAND EVIDENCE of Jesus outside of the bible. I have already answered the claim of the evidence that measures to about 1/2 the size of a palm print dated to 125 AD. All you have is some writing to linked to John almost a hundred years after the death of Jesus. This is not FIRSTHAND and it is NOT independent of the bible. At best it is part of the bible and that is conceding a lot to you." Yup.... RedClaw/JJ What Would Jesus Do? Member of -=DoS-United=- "StarCraft is fun" - me
NUHERE Master Sergeant Posts: 363 (9/14/02 1:50 pm) Reply	fossils Red You are comparing apples and oranges. What is being compared in your analogy is ones opinion of what has happened. They are being asked to judge intentions of one convicted. They are not being asked to come to a conlusion on such matters that would have a definite answer."nu "There is no definite answer here. If there was we'd all agree. No one denies that 2+2=4, so stop trying to make things up again. I find it interesting how you religiously use the same analogy but it's wrong when I do..." Maybe there is hope after all. Exactly right there is no definate answer to your analogy. You are content to base your life on a maybe? "Paul mentions nothing of Jesus earthly life and death"NU "So? This "proof" is really really weak...." This is not proof , this is a lack of evidence. If anyone should be mentioning anything about Jesus' life it should be Paul. Here is where the evidence should be but it is not. If someone shoots themself in the head the gun should be close by. If it is missing then something is wrong. "Is it perhaps that the time line presented for Jesus ( if it is he they are talking about) is seriously flawed. Not only is the time line flawed but the origins of Jesus are questioned as well. (assuming it is he) If it is not Jesus they are talking about then this is even more compelling to believe that Jesus is a myth brought to life."(nuhere on the dead sea scrolls) "Sure..." Do some research. "Besides, atheists.org believes in pro-avis...how rock solid is that?' Get some sleep. "No! You don't have ANY FIRST HAND EVIDENCE of Jesus outside of the bible. I have already answered the claim of the evidence that measures to about 1/2 the size of a palm print dated to 125 AD. All you have is some writing to linked to John almost a hundred years after the death of Jesus. This is not FIRSTHAND and it is NOT independent of the bible. At best it is part of the bible and that is conceding a lot to you." nu
RedClaw Posts: 1483 (9/15/02 11:10 am) Reply	Re: fossils "Maybe there is hope after all. Exactly right there is no definate answer to your analogy. You are content to base your life on a maybe?" You seem more than happy to base your life on a maybe, because you lack the proof that there is no God... "If anyone should be mentioning anything about Jesus' life it should be Paul." Why should he? Did he interact with Christ on the first person level? RedClaw/JJ What Would Jesus Do? Member of -=DoS-United=- "StarCraft is fun" - me
NUHERE Master Sergeant Posts: 373 (9/15/02 4:18 pm) Reply	fossils Red -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Maybe there is hope after all. Exactly right there is no definate answer to your analogy. You are content to base your life on a maybe?" "You seem more than happy to base your life on a maybe, because you lack the proof that there is no God..." You still have it wrong. One has to have evidence to believe in something. For example lets try this: I believe Christopher Columbus was not the first European to set foot on the Americas. I believe the Vikings did it first. Do I have reason to believe this? Yes. We have Viking ruins dated in this country pre 1492. This is reasonable evidence to believe. Your conclusion for faith is based upon what is called "Pascals Wager" Do some research on it. It states the same thing you did in that one should believe because one could not prove otherwise and one would have nothing to lose and everything to gain by believing.
RedClaw Posts: 1492 (9/15/02 5:06 pm) Reply	Re: fossils "Your conclusion for faith is based upon what is called "Pascals Wager" Do some research on it." Pascals Wager dealt with "having nothing to lose" when it comes to believing in God. Since I don't believe out of fear than I am not using Pascals Wager. My conclusion of faith is based upon what I've learned and connections I've made. It's clear to me you havn't made the same and why you so zealously and feebly try to prove me wrong confuses me greatly. "You still have it wrong. One has to have evidence to believe in something." And the evidence to believe is more compelling than the evidence not to, in my opinion. You'll never make me see your viewpoint because we view the evidence from a different perspective and think differently. RedClaw/JJ What Would Jesus Do? Member of -=DoS-United=- "StarCraft is fun" - me
NUHERE Master Sergeant Posts: 377 (9/17/02 4:05 pm) Reply	fossils RED "And the evidence to believe is more compelling than the evidence not to, in my opinion" Then why didn't you just say that in the first place? If you are happy with the evidece so be it. I think when most people find out the truth they start looking further and will eventually come to the conclusion I have.
RedClaw Posts: 1500 (9/18/02 2:41 pm) Reply	Re: fossils Well, not here. Your perception of truth is different than mine and it is obvious after all these weeks that you wont change it. RedClaw/JJ What Would Jesus Do? Member of -=DoS-United=- "StarCraft is fun" - me
NUHERE Master Sergeant Posts: 381 (9/20/02 3:42 pm) Reply	fossils Red "Your perception of truth is different than mine and it is obvious after all these weeks that you wont change it." Agreed. Mine rests with hard evidence and things that are real.
RedClaw Posts: 1506 (9/20/02 7:37 pm) Reply	Re: fossils "Agreed. Mine rests with hard evidence and things that are real." According to your perception. YOU believe that these are fact and hard(although sometimes outdated as Nukes pointed out) facts, and YOU believe that I'm incorrect. I don't agree with you, but that doesn't mean that you don't BELIEVE it to be true. RedClaw/JJ What Would Jesus Do? Member of -=DoS-United=- "StarCraft is fun" - me Edited by: RedClaw at: 9/20/02 7:38:36 pm
NUHERE Master Sergeant Posts: 385 (9/20/02 8:09 pm) Reply	fossils Red "According to your perception. YOU believe that these are fact and hard(although sometimes outdated as Nukes pointed out) facts, and YOU believe that I'm incorrect. I don't agree with you, but that doesn't mean that you don't BELIEVE it to be true." No , reliable facts are missing. I think we are confusing facts with beliefs. I accept certain evidence as fact if it can be shown to be reliable. I don't believe it because I want it too. Tell me what in your life would make you believe as fact, that a supernatural being impregnated a woman, and the child born was both man and god, that he went around doing miracles, was crucified , and then came back to life, and has the power to grant life eternal IF only we would believe?
RedClaw Posts: 1510 (9/20/02 10:01 pm) Reply	Re: fossils "No , reliable facts are missing." No they aren't.... RedClaw/JJ What Would Jesus Do? Member of -=DoS-United=- "StarCraft is fun" - me
NUHERE Master Sergeant Posts: 392 (9/21/02 6:07 am) Reply	fossils Red "No , reliable facts are missing."NU "No they aren't.... " Ahhh, yes they are. If the information is not eyewitness observed then it is second hand. If information is claimed as historical and no historical information can confirm the claim then the info is suspect. If the author of the information cannot be determined the credibility is questionable. Need I go on?
RedClaw Posts: 1516 (9/21/02 8:47 am) Reply	Re: fossils Sure man, whatever you say... RedClaw/JJ What Would Jesus Do? Member of -=DoS-United=- "StarCraft is fun" - me

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