I wonder sometimes

Most of the popes have not followed the ten commandments at all, so your whole argument goes down hill. Most of them have been adulterers, stealers, and even killed people. I do not listen to the pope because he is a man, and there is not way he can tell me they way to heaven, only the bible can. You should try to follow the ten commandments, because they are gods word, but the new testament came along, and so did Jesus. God saw how weak we were, and knew there was no way we would be able to get into heaven ever, because we are horrible sinners. If you do not think we are, look at the Pope, he is supposed to be the most holy, and rigthoues person in the world, but he is a horrible sinner as well. To gain creditability here, please tell us about your religious background, he have had so many people come here who say, "WHO I AM IS NOT IMPORTANT, I FOLLOW ONLY THE TRUTH" Your truth most likely is a lot different than ours, so some background will help you.

Author	Comment
X Zack X Private First Class Posts: 48 (9/29/02 10:20 pm) Reply	Re: ok Nuhere I asked Redclaw to do this PLEASE go talk in another thread about that or anything if it had to do with a topic fine but please don't respond to any arguements in this thread make another one and discuss whatever needs to be discused(talking about Nuhere's Views and how people want to discuss them)q So says me X ZackX Aim:ZaWerKae
Crusader2002 Private Posts: 1 (11/6/02 3:11 pm) Reply	Some comments Hail all readers! *Quote:* "about Baptisim let me as you this What if your a true 100% christian you pray with all you heart you love God you read your bible often you go to church whenever your able (fellowship remember Church isn't a building it's people) BUT you can't be baptised because your parents WON'T Let you and you know if you get baptised behind there back they'll keep you from going to church reading the bible so you don't you then die- will you go to Heave or hell?" What is a 100% christian? Is there a percentage-meter for that? To be a christian it is necessary to follow the TEN COMMANDMENTS (and all the consequences of that), which are inscribed inside every man's soul (even the buddhists know when they commit sin). Pray with heart? Usually people pray using their mouth and their mind to meditate upon the importance of what they are saying. Read the bible often? How come in the past few people knew how to read and yet most of them knew a lot about God's teachings? Isn't it in the Bible that : "Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. "(II Cor. III, 6). And: "But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. " (Rom. X, 16-17). "(fellowship remember Church isn't a building it's people)" Where in the Bible is this definition of Church? Isn't it in the Bible that: "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter [rock], and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."(Mat XVI, 17-19) About baptism: If you really can't get baptized correctly, what is a VERY RARE occurance nowadays since even lay people may do that, you can still be baptized through WILL (baptism of WILL - an old teaching that maybe your local heretic...er "bishop"...or whatever title he pridefully claims to himself, may not know or doesn't want people to know). This baptism of WILL happens when someone with invincible ignorance, follows the TEN COMMANDMENTS, therefore acting according to God's Will. About going to Heaven or Hell, it depends on whether you die in mortal sin or not. If you manage to confess your sin correctly (or with perfect contriction - what is a very hard thing for a sinner to do - which consist in regretting your sins not because you are afraid of Hell, but because you have offended God, "Supreme Goodness") then you get the chance of going to Heaven (how fast though depends on your lesser sins, if you manage to get them all payed you go straight to Heaven (after a personal judgement), otherwise you will have to spend some time in Purgatory (which is Hell, but for a "short" period of time, not eternally). I recomend all of you to read The Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas, there are all the answers for the questions we usually have. (www.newadvent.org\summa\index.html) Some other commentaries: Faith is not a "feeling". It is a Holy Grace that is according to logical reason. Try not using "in my opinion" in the answers. No "my opinion" changes the fact that 1 plus 1 equals 2. Truth is Objective. In corde Iesu et Mariae, R.A.C.
Dualhunter Master Gunnery Sergeant Posts: 460 (11/6/02 5:41 pm) Reply	Re: Some comments "I recomend all of you to read The Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas, there are all the answers for the questions we usually have." I prefer this book called the Bible, you can read it here: bible.gospelcom.net/ Here's a sample: 4 For (4) Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to (5) everyone who believes. 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law (6) shall live by that righteousness. 6 But (7) the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "( DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE (9) ABYSS?' (that is, to (10) bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "(11) THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that (12) if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and (13) believe in your heart that (14) God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. - Romans 10:4-10 NASB
Crusader2002 Private Posts: 2 (11/6/02 6:30 pm) Reply	Some observations *Quote:* that (12) if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and (13) believe in your heart that (14) God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; Indeed, this goes according to the 1st and 2nd commandments, but there are 8 more commandments to fullfill in order to be saved. When I recomended the Summa Theologica it was because it is a good help to clear our minds. The Bible is the most important book doubtlessly, but it is very hard to understand it. We, due to original sin, are unable to comprehend correctly what is written, therefore we need the explanation from the one and only whom Christ gave the power of the correct interpretation of the Bible, whom He gave the keys, Saint Peter, or, as we know today, the Pope (St. Peter's apostolic successor). Other interpretations are all faulty or contradictory, since they are done by prideful humans, blinded by their own prideness. What I just said is all in the Bible: "Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. And Philip ran thither to [him], and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth." (Act VIII, 29-33) [the keys' part was mentioned on my post above] Not only we are unable to understand the Holy Bible on our own efforts, but we also need to be very aware about the Apocryphas [fake books]. What is the guarantee that your are not reading one? This comes to another subject, about the canon of the Bible: Where is the list of the books of the Bible [which books are inspired and which are not]? Is it inside the Bible? Or is it outside it? Don't forget that we should accept everything that is inside the WHOLE Bible [Vulgata], and not picking sentences separately as it pleases us, as this is a typical action of a heretic person [this means, he who chooses, or according to dictionary.com: A heretic is one whose errors are doctrinal, and usually of a malignant character, tending to subvert the true faith] In corde Iesu et Mariae, R.A.C. P.S: Please excuse my English errors, I am not a north american.
Kaze9999 friend Posts: 939 (11/6/02 6:33 pm) Reply	Re: Some comments *Quote:* Try not using "in my opinion" in the answers. No "my opinion" changes the fact that 1 plus 1 equals 2. Truth is Objective I have a problem with the proposition that theological truth is on the level of "1 +1 =2". Here is my train of thought: 1 God is perfect Truth. 2 We are not God. 3 We do not have perfect knowledge of the 'truth'. 4 Our limited, human expressions of God's truth are not perfect, therefore not perfectly accurate. To claim otherwise is to claim God-like accuracy and authority. 5 Use of "imho" or "in my opinion" reflects an awareness of these 'truths'. It does not make God's authority any less for us to say 'in my opinion', it only acknowledges that we are not Jesus, come directly from heaven to speak directly as the mouth and voice of God. 6 Humility is not bad or weakness; humility is good. 7 Stating our interpretation of Scripture as the only, objective true interpretation is, in my opinion not 'faith', but arrogance. Eric --------------Just a signature------------------------ Genesis {33:19} He said, "I will make all my goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of Yahweh before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy." Romans {9:20} But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed ask him who formed it, "Why did you make me like this?" {9:21} Or hasn't the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel for honor, and another for dishonor? Steven Brust {Phoenix} A god is someone who isn't bound by natural laws, and who can morally commit an action which would be immoral for someone who wasn't a god. Edited by: Kaze9999 at: 11/6/02 6:39:00 pm
Dualhunter Master Gunnery Sergeant Posts: 461 (11/6/02 7:00 pm) Reply	Re: Some comments Crusader2002, please tell me more about yourself, your beliefs your church, your country of origin, etc (not for the purpose of debate, just to get an idea of where you're coming from).
Crusader2002 Private Posts: 3 (11/6/02 7:50 pm) Reply	reply *Quote:* 1 God is perfect Truth. 2 We are not God. 3 We do not have perfect knowledge of the 'truth'. 4 Our limited, human expressions of God's truth are not perfect, therefore not perfectly accurate. To claim otherwise is to claim God-like accuracy and authority. 5 Use of "imho" or "in my opinion" reflects an awareness of these 'truths'. It does not make God's authority any less for us to say 'in my opinion', it only acknowledges that we are not Jesus, come directly from heaven to speak directly as the mouth and voice of God. Indeed, we can't have perfect (whole) knowledge of the truth, since we are limited humans, but this does not discards the possibility of we knowing part of it. An analogy would be someone reading a book, he might have not read it entirely, but the amount he already read, is the part of the book he already knows. Truth IS objective. If you wrongly think that truth is subjective, then it is a waste of time any further discussion, since if we had our own truths, there would be no need to learn anything. (Some good arguing on truth is: www.newadvent.org/summa/101605.htm Objection 3 is similar to what you say) *Quote:* Stating our interpretation of Scripture as the only, objective true interpretation is, in my opinion not 'faith', but arrogance I repeat, once more, that I don't interpret the Bible on my own (like in the text above: "...Understandest thou what thou readest? And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me?..."), but I follow Christ's representation on Earth, the Pope, who, with the power of the keys given by Christ, holds the true interpretation of the Bible [as well as those he ordained: bishops and priests] If you get 2 protestants, you will get 2 different interpretations, which, among other protestant interpretations, will have plenty of contradictions. But the Holy Scriptures cannot be contradictory. Therefore, the same way there is only ONE TRUTH -- ONE GOD -- there is only ONE INTERPRETATION. If you manage to find any 'leak' on the correct interpretation of the Bible, you will have found a 'leak' on God's Wisdom, what is an absurd. Therefore there is ONE interpretation that is FLAWLESS, and all others are faulty. There is no arrogance in stating that, it is a mere consequence of God's perfection. There is no "my opinion" of faith's subjects, you can, through the intellect, understand the one and only truth and accept it or deny it [iniquity mystery]. In corde Iesu et Mariae, R.A.C.
Dualhunter Master Gunnery Sergeant Posts: 462 (11/6/02 10:00 pm) Reply	Re: reply Could you reply to my previous post please?
Crusader2002 Private Posts: 4 (11/7/02 7:28 am) Reply	reply It is not important who I am, but the content of what I am saying. Anyway, I can give some information about me: I am Brazilian. I believe only in the Truth. My interest in here is an apologetic one, Ad maiorem Dei gloriam, and I expect some response to my argumentations. In corde Iesu et Mariae, R.A.C. P.S: please ignore my previous observation regarding "objection 3", I could't manage to edit the post.
Crusader2002 Private Posts: 5 (11/7/02 8:09 am) Reply	reply While checking other posts, and to take advantage of being here to answer them, I found this: (from here) *Quote:* Hmm... to be honest, I am very, very tempted to go chew out that Catholic in the other thread. The doctrine of salvation by works just really, really gets on my nerves (unless I am mistaken on it's accuracy, it is reponsible for having mislead billions of people). Oh well... I'll save that for tomorrow. Why does it get you in the nerves? Do you have something against it? Or is it just irrational anger? Isn't it in the Bible that: "And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none [is] good, save one, [that is], God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother. And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up. Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me."(Luk XVIII, 18-) This clearly shows that Christ said that to inherit eternal life, i.e. to be saved, you need to follow the TEN COMMANDMENTS and DO GOOD THINGS, in this case, the rich shall help the poor, as well as the wise shall teach the ignorant, the strong shall protect the weak, the faithful shall convert the unfaithful, etc. When Jesus said "yet lackest thou one thing", he did not said it was faith, much less did he say that ONLY faith is necessary to be saved. There is no use of knowing the entire Bible "by heart" and not understanding a single word of what's written. Therefore we need to know the TRUE INTERPRETATION of it, and Jesus did not abadon us on that, he provided us the TRUE INTERPRETER, the Pope. I am not using "my opinion", I am simply showing what is in the Bible, "Who hath ears to hear, let him hear." In corde Iesu et Mariae, R.A.C.
RshScks Sergeant Major Posts: 409 (11/7/02 8:24 am) Reply	First and for most Most of the popes have not followed the ten commandments at all, so your whole argument goes down hill. Most of them have been adulterers, stealers, and even killed people. I do not listen to the pope because he is a man, and there is not way he can tell me they way to heaven, only the bible can. You should try to follow the ten commandments, because they are gods word, but the new testament came along, and so did Jesus. God saw how weak we were, and knew there was no way we would be able to get into heaven ever, because we are horrible sinners. If you do not think we are, look at the Pope, he is supposed to be the most holy, and rigthoues person in the world, but he is a horrible sinner as well. To gain creditability here, please tell us about your religious background, he have had so many people come here who say, "WHO I AM IS NOT IMPORTANT, I FOLLOW ONLY THE TRUTH" Your truth most likely is a lot different than ours, so some background will help you.
Crusader2002 Private Posts: 6 (11/7/02 9:59 am) Reply	reply *Quote:* Your truth most likely is a lot different than ours, so some background will help you. There is no different "truths", there is ONE truth. Or you follow the truth or you follow a lie. Another information about me is something some of you have already deducted, I am Roman Catholic and I study theology and philosophy. *Quote:* Most of the popes have not followed the ten commandments at all, so your whole argument goes down hill. Most of them have been adulterers, stealers, and even killed people. Most? It is quite the opposite if you go count. Even though, this does not invalidate my argument, since what I said was that the Pope is supposed to be our visible guide on Earth (as Jesus said) and not being a perfect being, after all he is also a human. The Pope is not impeccable, but he is Infallible on Faith and Morals when he uses the power of the keys("And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter [rock], and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."(Mat XVI, 17-19)) *Quote:* You should try to follow the ten commandments, because they are gods word, but the new testament came along, and so did Jesus. God saw how weak we were, and knew there was no way we would be able to get into heaven ever, because we are horrible sinners. Are you trying to say that He didn't know that from the very beginning? Or that the Old Testament's God is different from the New Testament's one? Then your idea of God is very twisted and I advise you to check www.newadvent.org/summa/1.htm to get a better understanding of God [it is all clearly rational, as the truth is supposed to be]. About sins: indeed we are prone to commit sins, because of the original sin, but it is possible, with God's Holy Grace, to live an entire life without sins, such is the case of many saints. It is not an easy task, that is why so few managed to accomplish this, but we can always try to improve, by regretting our sins and confessing them to the priest [who has the power, given by Christ, to forgive our sins]. The same way when a robber goes to jail, he can spend some time in there or alternate his sentence with some community work, the same happens after we confess our sins, we can pay them in Purgatory or we can make penitence here to diminish our time in there, which is, by the way, much better then spending any second in Purgatory [temporary Hell]. In corde Iesu et Mariae, R.A.C.
Crusader2002 Private Posts: 7 (11/7/02 10:05 am) Reply	reply Sorry for the html code mistake on the post above. There was not supposed to be an angry face, but some misused html code instead. Does anyone know how to edit posts? In corde Iesu et Mariae, R.A.C.
Kaze9999 friend Posts: 943 (11/7/02 11:48 am) Reply	Ahhh! NOW I see where you're coming from! *Quote:* but I follow Christ's representation on Earth, the Pope, So, are you asserting that all Popes have been Christ's representation on Earth? And if so, are you asserting that all Popes have been consistently in agreement with all previous Popes? Or, if they have not, are you asserting that Christ has changed his Truth with the fads and fasions of the world as the Popes positions through the ages have reflected? I do not receive any man on Earth as being my intermediary or intercessor between me and God. Jesus speaks directly to me. Jesus is my Saviour. He is able and willing to reveal His Truth through scripture to me directly. He has not given me any idols to worship and glorify instead of Him, neither Earthly men nor even the scriptures themselves. Eric --------------Just a signature------------------------ Genesis {33:19} He said, "I will make all my goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of Yahweh before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy." Romans {9:20} But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed ask him who formed it, "Why did you make me like this?" {9:21} Or hasn't the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel for honor, and another for dishonor? Steven Brust {Phoenix} A god is someone who isn't bound by natural laws, and who can morally commit an action which would be immoral for someone who wasn't a god.
TCWalt Corporal Posts: 134 (11/7/02 11:51 am) Reply	Re: reply I will not make an attempt (which would obviously be feeble) to get in the middle of this "debate" however, I would like to point out that I don't think it matters where Crusader comes from. He is sharing his beliefs. What possible difference could it make where we come from or our background? Wouldn't that be a type of discrimination? Ok so that is probably for another thread. Christie
Taemir Arketon Private First Class Posts: 21 (11/7/02 1:18 pm) Reply	Re: reply *Quote:* I do not receive any man on Earth as being my intermediary or intercessor between me and God. Crusader did not claim that the Pope is either. The Pope according to the Catechism: 891. "'The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful..." The Holy Spirit guides Christ's church, and as supreme pastor and teacher, the Pope has the final say on interpretation. Now Protestants claim that this means that you and I as regular, unfrocked people can't read and contemplate Scripture. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe Catholic docrtine teaches this. Instead, it has the Magisterium of the Pastors. The best I can tell, this is to Christianity what peer review is to science. It is the gathering of faithful leaders to express the true teachings of Scripture and then passes it to the laity. Btw, Crusader, you should see an 'Edit' link under the date in the left-hand box. Edited by: Taemir Arketon at: 11/7/02 1:21:04 pm
Dualhunter Master Gunnery Sergeant Posts: 463 (11/7/02 1:39 pm) Reply	Re: reply The reason I was interested in where Crusader is from is because Catholics like to pretend that they all believe the same thing. American Catholics are always denying that they believe in salvation by works but Crusader from Brazil says you must fulfill the 10 commandments to be saved. So much for the unity of Catholics. Depending on where you are in the world, Catholicism can be radically different which kinda contradicts their claims of being the One True Church and that Tradition brings clarity. So, Crusader, when did you become a new creature in Christ?
SirNukes Cow Master Posts: 1990 (11/7/02 2:22 pm) Reply	Re: reply Ok, leaving structure behind, I'll just hit on the main things I want to say. I should apologize ahead of time, but claiming we are saved by works just gets me really ticked off. Don't take what I say too personally.. try to aim for the right amount of personally. On truth, I'm sorry to say that your pride blinds you. Here you are repeating what you have read and been told, not bothering to question it in the slightest, having convinced yourself that it just so happens to be true. And now you make your rounds 'sharing' that truth, getting off on being (or thinking you are) more knowledgeable than others on the topic. Don't bother to dispute it; I'm not an idiot when it comes to looking at your use of language and seeing through it (and yes, I know I could be wrong, but to convince me of that you would have to make some serious concessions which I'm rather sure you will not make). When you go up to someone and say "I am the only person here with the truth, so just accept what I say all you ignorant people," you insult everyone to whom you are speaking. Further, for those more experienced individuals who have seen your kind before, you insult yourself and kill off whatever credibility you may have been given. Many of those here are more experienced individuals (though, they have much more tact when it comes to mentioning as much that I do). In other words, by claiming to have special knowledge, you have already lost all chance at convincing any of us of your Catholic doctrines. But enough about your pride. Allow me to now examine some of your other claims (sheesh, where to start...). How about with your lovely mini-god, the pope, in all his infallible glory. Not surprisingly, the RCC revolves wholly around one single passage concerning Peter, ignoring all else. For instance, you have claimed to follow the Bible and the Bible alone (that all beliefs are substantiated there), however I challenge you to find anything, however minuscule, saying the Peter would be reincarnated throughout the centuries, or that his authority is/was absolute on faith and morals, or that such authority was at all passed down. Not surprisingly, no such things are there, but feel free to prove me wrong (it would very much surprise me if you turned out not to be utterly hypocritical on claimed to follow the Bible). Another point - Peter wasn't infallible on faith and morals within the Bible itself, much less the papacy. Ever take a gander at Galations, in which Paul very specifically points out a Huge mistake on Peter's part on excluding the Gentiles? In 2 peter 3:15 your wonderful fellow backs Paul, so you can't say that Paul was a fluke with no authority, as Peter according him a lot of respect. Indeed, this whole incident relates to your one statement: "If you get 2 protestants, you will get 2 different interpretations, which, among other protestant interpretations, will have plenty of contradictions." Yet the early church worked the same way, with Peter and Paul opposing one another, and yet they didn't renounce the other person for having a different opinion, Paul simply saw Peter doing something wrong and confronted him on it. This incident alone overthrows the entire Catholic belief system. It goes like this: The Bible and the pope are the supreme authorities, the pope inheriting Peter's authority. Truth is objective and absolute, and neither of the above sources can be wrong. Therefore, any who disagree are wrong and fallible, and should not be listened to. Paul disagreed with Peter, so Paul is fallible and wrong and a source of error. Peter backed Paul, so Peter is fallible and wrong and a source of error. The popes come from Peter, so they are fallible and sources of error. The only thing left is the Bible, and if you were to read that honestly, you'd probably become Protestant. Continuing the arguments against the pope, there is what was mentioned about his many sins, not to mention contradictions between popes and the Bible (take, for instance, the pope's backing of evolution, whereas the Bible backs a 7-day creation). You claim all this stuff about the "keys", but if the pope is the only one with infallible authority, how does anyone know when he's using the keys or not? Most of what he says could be separate from them, and hence fallible. And since you don't know when he's doing what, everything is doubtful. The answer would be to check what he says against the Bible, but the thing about the RCC is that it doesn't follow the Bible, it follows its own doctrines and uses the Bible where convenient to put on a good face to the public. I should probably substantiate that, and can do so easily. "...we can pay them in Purgatory or we can make penitence here to diminish our time in there, which is, by the way, much better then spending any second in Purgatory [temporary Hell]." Yet, I challenge you to find the Catholic doctrine of purgatory anywhere in the Bible. I propose that we never hear quoted verses backing it because there aren't any, and because the RCC doesn't care (as I said, it does not follow the Bible). Indeed, Jehovah's Witnesses are exactly the same way with their watchtower publication. They say whatever they want in there, quoting clipped verses here and there to give the illusion of being Biblical. "Don't forget that we should accept everything that is inside the WHOLE Bible [Vulgata], and not picking sentences separately as it pleases us, as this is a typical action of a heretic person [this means, he who chooses, or according to dictionary.com: A heretic is one whose errors are doctrinal, and usually of a malignant character, tending to subvert the true faith]" Minus anything I want to say on the vulgate remark, a quick comment, as it is applicable here: saying this does not suddenly make you innocent of it. A lot of people think if they kick out an allegation early enough in an argument, it cannot be used against them. However, I allegate that you shred the Bible to pieces finding anything you can to back your beliefs (or, more likely, it has been shredding by others, the pieces have been picked out, and they have bee given to you.. either way, you do not take the Bible as a whole; your doctrines largely contradict it). Now, on to what matters seriously matters - salvation by works bs. salvation by grace. I believe in the latter, you and the RCC (and every other non-Christian religion on Earth) the former. What do you quote? Luke 18? Ah, but you twist it as if your life depends on it (and, in a way, it does from your perspective). Notice, for instance, how you conveniently cut off the entire point of what Jesus said in order to replace it with your own "truth." What was lost: 23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich. 24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! 25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle�s eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 26 And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved? 27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God. 28 Then Peter said, Lo, we have left all, and followed thee. 29 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God�s sake, 30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting. Notice, my opponent, if you haven't already, verses 26 and 27. The entire point of Jesus' words on following the commandments was that no one had done what it takes to get into heaven. He knew the guy was rich, and gave a tailored response to show that even that guy had downfallings holding him back from heaven. And, of course, in keeping with My belief, Christ used his words to point to God for salvation, not works. I might as well warn you that the Bible backs me on the issue very thoroughly, so don't expect to win this argument. Oh, and to take a cheap shot, since your argument supposedly comes from the pope, and it's wrong, there's another example of the pope's fallacy. Well, this is the main issue I wanted to tackle, so I'll end with it and not bother with any of the other cans of worms. To close, I'll whack you over the head with verses. I prefer arguments that stand on their own, but there's just so much I can use to support what I say that I can't resist. Romans 3:19-31 (highlights) 23 For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus: 27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. Romans 9:30-33 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame." Galations 3 (highlights) 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 8 The scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham 10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; for God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise. 21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoner by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Chrits that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. Well, I could give more on salvation by grace, but the above is sufficient to make you eat your words: "To be a christian it is necessary to follow the TEN COMMANDMENTS" and "i.e. to be saved, you need to follow the TEN COMMANDMENTS and DO GOOD THINGS." Then there's always "There is no use of knowing the entire Bible 'by heart' and not understanding a single word of what's written" - you should take your own advice. As it stands, you do not know what it is to be a Christian. To wrap up, one last quote (the reference of which I gave earlier). 2 Peter 3:15-16 Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. <a href="http://www.christiangamer.org"><img src="http://www.christiangamer.org/images/sirnukes.jpg"></a>
Crusader2002 Private Posts: 8 (11/7/02 6:59 pm) Reply	reply Firstly, a reply to Dualhunter: *Quote:* The reason I was interested in where Crusader is from is because Catholics like to pretend that they all believe the same thing. American Catholics are always denying that they believe in salvation by works but Crusader from Brazil says you must fulfill the 10 commandments to be saved. So much for the unity of Catholics. Depending on where you are in the world, Catholicism can be radically different which kinda contradicts their claims of being the One True Church and that Tradition brings clarity. It seems you don't know nothing about the Catholic Creed. In order to be Catholic, you must agree with the entire doctrine, which is unique and eternal (never changes), the same characteristics of truth. If it happens to have a "Catholic" that disagrees even with the tyniest part of the true doctrine, then he is claimed heretic and is separated from Christ's Church, until he repents and returns to follow the right path. There is no "different catholicism" depending on where you are in the world, the doctrine is the same everywhere and everytime (past, present and future). If you find any difference that is not along the Catholic doctrine, then it is simply not Catholic. To know about the Catholic doctrine, I recommend you to read the Roman Cathecism, there are some of the basics we all should know. (check www.cin.org/users/james/e...tindex.htm to read the Cathecism) If Saddam Hussein says he is catholic, this does not make him a catholic. We first need to analyze if he really believes in the whole creed and other parts of the true doctrine, but to really know if he has really been converted, that only God knows. If there are a lot of people that claim to be "catholic", but aren't, this just shows how few is known about the truth nowadays and how fast lies are spread out. This also relates to this part: "Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."(Mat XIII, 30) Therefore it is of no surprise that evil people (fake catholics and the likes) are mixed with good people (true catholics). The separation of the good people from the evil ones will happen in the Judgement Day. Until then, we are to be aware of the wolves dressed in sheeps' skins. ------------------------------------------------------ Secondly, a reply to SirNukes: *Quote:* In other words, by claiming to have special knowledge, you have already lost all chance at convincing any of us of your Catholic doctrines. I haven't insulted anyone if I recall correctly. If I deny I have a "special" knowledge, I would be denying that God's teachings are "special" and that would be absurd. I am not talking about any mere doctrine, I am talking about God's doctrine, and that is far more important than we can fathom. *Quote:* For instance, you have claimed to follow the Bible and the Bible alone (that all beliefs are substantiated there) I haven't claimed that. I claimed that I only believe in the Truth (which is in the Bible interpreted "at the light of" the Tradition [I don't know if this term is correct in english]). I repeat what I said before: "...about the canon of the Bible: Where is the list of the books of the Bible [which books are inspired and which are not]? Is it inside the Bible? Or is it outside it?" *Quote:* how does anyone know when he's using the keys or not? There are two cases in which he is infallible: in the Extraordinary Magisterium, when he uses the infallibility formula, speaking "ex cathedra", and in the Ordinary Magisterium, when he teaches what the Popes have always teached in an universal problem, giving always the same solution, always teached by his predecessors. But when a Pope simply gives his opinion, he may err (like backing the evolution as you said). [I could explain more about the Church's Canon Law, but other subjects are more important right now, this brief explanation should be enough] *Quote:* but the thing about the RCC is that it doesn't follow the Bible, it follows its own doctrines and uses the Bible where convenient to put on a good face to the public. About the RCC: it is not a representation of Catholicism. It is a more intrincate problem, but for a short commentary I can tell you this: RCC's roots are protestant. This explains why it uses the Bible where convenient. Therefore RCC is a heretical group and, in the proper time, probably with another Pope, will be condemned accordingly. *Quote:* I challenge you to find the Catholic doctrine of purgatory anywhere in the Bible. Again a typical protestant challenge against the Church. If the Roman Catholic Church cannot teach, then who is going to explain to us what is in the Bible? Each one will understand it's own way what God revealed. The result will be the multiplication of sects. How many protestants sects are there, each one judging itself to be the right one and condemning all others? This is why Christ gave the power to interpretate the Holy Scriptures only to Peter. The purgatory can be deducted from what the Holy Scriptures teaches. Isn't it written that the just falls seven times a day? (Prov. XXIV - 16). If he is just, how come he sins? If he sins, how come he is just? This is possible because there are sins that don't make us lose the justice. These are the venial or minor sins. Luther, and the protestants after him, say that all sins are equal, that there are no mortal and minor sins like the Church has always teached. Even Christ distinguished major sins from minor sins "For this reason the one who handed me over to you has the greater sin.", said Jesus to Pilate (Jo XIX,11). Jesus also said that some sins wouldn't be forgiven neither in this world nor in the another. Therefore there are sins that can be forgiven in the other world (purgatory), which are the minor sins. And He also said that some offenses were going to be punished in such way that you wouldn't leave the punishment until you have payed the last penny (Mat V,26). Hence, there is a place where you are punished and then forgiven, meanwhile Hell is eternal: "Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Mt. XXV 41). Finally the second book of Maccabees asserts: "Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin." (II Mac. XII,46). The Church has always teached about the existence of the purgatory, because the Church cannot make mistakes. Instead of believing in what you understand, do believe in the Church. To have Faith is to believe in what Christ said and the Church teaches. He who believes in his own understanding has no Faith. *Quote:* you and the RCC (and every other non-Christian religion on Earth) According to what you say the Roman Catholic Church is non-Christian? Are you infallible? Where in the Bible does it say that SirNukes' interpretation is the right one? (nevermind RCC, it is non-Christian as I stated above) Instead of looping on this subject I repeat the question once more: "...about the canon of the Bible: Where is the list of the books of the Bible (which books are inspired and which are not)? Is it inside the Bible? Or is it outside it?" Isn't it nice to learn a lot about Catholicism? By the questions you all make, it shows clearly a lack of knowledge about some basic issues, such as the Pope's infallibility. I have written plenty already and I don't have much time to continue now, sorry, but I am willing to answer as much as I can. For now this post should clarify some topics. In corde Iesu et Mariae, R.A.C.
Taemir Arketon Private First Class Posts: 22 (11/7/02 7:46 pm) Reply	Re: reply *Quote:* About the RCC: it is not a representation of Catholicism. It is a more intrincate problem, but for a short commentary I can tell you this: RCC's roots are protestant. This explains why it uses the Bible where convenient. Therefore RCC is a heretical group and, in the proper time, probably with another Pope, will be condemned accordingly. I'm completely baffled by this part. I assume RCC is Roman Catholic Church. Could you explain the non-catholicism of it, or the heresy of it? Why doesn't the pope condemn it? Does it have something to do with Vatican II? Or am I missing the boat entirely? P.S. I did a yahoo search and came up with the Old Roman Catholic Church and the description was an "independent, non-papal, present-day successor of the historic Catholic Church and its undivided apostolic faith." Is that who you mean? Edited by: Taemir Arketon at: 11/7/02 7:51:09 pm

The Faithful Knights of Christ > Christian Discussion > I wonder sometimes
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