Alkanoonion 
Thain
Posts: 282
(1/21/04 9:22 pm)
Reply
|
relationships
Thain
Master of Bree
Chief Shirriff
posted March 17, 2003 06:38 PM
When I first read the LOTR I wondered at the relationships the men had with each other and the lack of women. Could the lack of female characters be a reflection of his time in the war and the views of society at the time or did he just not have any point of reference from the women’s parts. What are your thoughts on the characters relationships?
The Thain of Bree Under Bree-hill
Posts: 890 | From: Australia | Registered: December 11, 2002
Sister Bigfoot
The Artist
Shirriff
posted March 23, 2003 09:54 PM
The female characters in Tolkins books are all strong and out standing.
By limiting the female characters to only a few, makes these few stand out, thus enforcing their importance:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I will not give you counsel, say do this, or do that. For not in doing or contriving, nor in choosing between this course and another, can I avail: but only in knowing what was is and is, and in part also what shall be... your quest stands upon the edge of a knife...Yet hope remains while the company is true.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
: Galadriel
Such speeches stand out because they were stated by a woman, and not a man.
------------------------
Yes I am a Hobbit, and a fat one at that!
Posts: 669 | From: Adelaide Australia | Registered: December 12, 2002
Gayalondiel
Tavern Hostess
Inn Keeper
posted April 07, 2003 11:52 PM
I would say that the nature of male-male relationships is very reflective of Tolkien's experiance. It's hard for us to recall now that when he was writing men socilised with men and women with women (look at the Inklings, for example). Also, his time in the trenches would give an impression of comradeship that we can't understand now. I think that certainly comes through within the Fellowship itself - day in, day out, you're dependant on others, and they on you. That kind of situation forms a type of bond which is found in many war epics, and which we of modern Western equal-opportunities culture can only wonder about. Except people in the armed forces, i suppose (my boyfriend is close to his shipmates on a different level than our friends at uni), but there again we now have mixed genders, which will inevitably shift the dynamic - and fortunately, we are not yet involved in the type of war seen on the Somme where JRRT served.
________________________
The Dude Abides
Posts: 258 | From: My own wierd, wierd world | Registered: December 23, 2002
Sister Bigfoot
The Artist
Shirriff
posted April 09, 2003 08:49 PM
In The Silmarillion, many of the stories are centred on women. In fact, women play a huge part in the fate of Middle Earth. Why this is not so in TLR, I do not know?
It could have something to do with Tolkins experiences in the trenches, but when he was piecing together the ideas for the LTR's, he was also doing the same for The Silmarillion (Tolkin wanted them to be published at the same time).
------------------------
Yes I am a Hobbit, and a fat one at that!
Posts: 669 | From: Adelaide Australia | Registered: December 12, 2002
Gayalondiel
Tavern Hostess
Inn Keeper
posted April 10, 2003 06:23 AM
Sketches for the Sil (ie BoLT) pre-date LotR, and possibly even the war? I'm not sure about that. But Tolkien grew up surrounded by men, his stongest female role models beign his mother, who he appeared to view as a saint of sorts, and Edith Tolkien, with whom he was ardently in love. I would suggest that he attached a great positive significance to the strong women in his stories, relating them to these two. (He had 'Luthien' inscribed on Edith's tomb.)
In LotR, the characters are much less clearly defined in terms of good and bad, strong and weak. The only two really strong and significant characters in the fellowship are Aragorn (and there wouldn't have been a Queen instead of a king, for the time it would have been a far weaker ideal, and she wouldn't have been allowed to fight) and Gandalf, who again would have been prevented from doing a lot of things had he been female. It's noticable that Tolkien's strong female leads don't ride off on quests or battles (unless there is no-one at all who can go). Eowyn is of course the exception, but she's not exactly a strong female. This would throw some insight into the lack of women in LotR: where the Sil returns time and again to places, meeting the same people over and again, LotR is constantly moving forward, preventing females becoming leads because they have to be left behind.
________________________
The Dude Abides
Posts: 258 | From: My own wierd, wierd world | Registered: December 23, 2002
Sister Bigfoot
The Artist
Shirriff
posted April 10, 2003 06:45 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LotR is constantly moving forward, preventing females becoming leads because they have to be left behind.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I had not previously thought about this point, but I agree with you.
I also knew nothing about Tolkin’s relationship with his mother (and other family), about how she influenced his work. This could be an interesting topic of discussion on its own. Maybe I should go and read into this a bit more. Thanks for the idea Gayalondiel.
------------------------
Yes I am a Hobbit, and a fat one at that!
Posts: 669 | From: Adelaide Australia | Registered: December 12, 2002
Gayalondiel
Tavern Hostess
Inn Keeper
posted April 11, 2003 12:46 AM
Have you read any biographies? I find reading two (so you get an idea of how much is fact and how much is conjecture) to be a great help, they have insights into all his relationships, from Edith Tolkien to C.S.Lewis.
________________________
The Dude Abides
Posts: 258 | From: My own wierd, wierd world | Registered: December 23, 2002
Sister Bigfoot
The Artist
Shirriff
posted April 11, 2003 02:15 AM
I've just read the Sil, and a few books that discuss the LOTR and Tolkin.
What with study and general life, I don't get to do the research that I need to do so that I am up to date with Tolkin in general. But I'm slowly getting there.
So yes, I will make use of your suggestion, and thank you.
------------------------
Yes I am a Hobbit, and a fat one at that!
Posts: 669 | From: Adelaide Australia | Registered: December 12, 2002
Gayalondiel
Tavern Hostess
Inn Keeper
posted April 11, 2003 03:56 AM
Goodness, I know the feeling. I've been on the same page of HoME book II for about a year now, life just gets in the way sometimes, doesn't it?
________________________
The Dude Abides
Posts: 258 | From: My own wierd, wierd world | Registered: December 23, 2002
Sister Bigfoot
The Artist
Shirriff
posted April 12, 2003 10:57 PM
You are doing well.
The help you give to me and to others (who are not very well based in Tolkin law), it is very much appreciated.
I love your ideas. You always come up with ideas that I would never consider.
------------------------
Yes I am a Hobbit, and a fat one at that!
Posts: 669 | From: Adelaide Australia | Registered: December 12, 2002
Gayalondiel
Tavern Hostess
Inn Keeper
posted April 13, 2003 05:19 AM
It's very sweet of you to say that, Sis. I tend to think around things, often my ideas don't form until I'm halfway through what appered at first to be a pointless post.
________________________
The Dude Abides
Posts: 258 | From: My own wierd, wierd world | Registered: December 23, 2002
Mr Underhill
Town Local
posted April 22, 2003 02:27 AM
When I first read the books the characters to me looked gay. but since rereading the books and reading this topic I can now see how I was wayoff
Please remember - all of you - that the name of Baggins must NOT be mentioned. I am Mr Underhill, if any name must be given.
Posts: 155 | From: Vic | Registered: January 05, 2003
Sister Bigfoot
The Artist
Shirriff
posted April 22, 2003 11:15 PM
Yes...there does seem to be a gay vibe with some of the characters. But we must remember that in Tolkins day, men 'loving' men would not automatically mean that they were gay, but rather, they were expressing a genuine admiration for that person’s deeds and character (in a none sexual context).
------------------------
Yes I am a Hobbit, and a fat one at that!
Posts: 669 | From: Adelaide Australia | Registered: December 12, 2002
Gayalondiel
Tavern Hostess
Inn Keeper
posted April 28, 2003 05:15 AM
Exactly so. People often forget that, even in Tolkien's later years, society had men and women in separate social circles. Our freedom of expression amongst both sexes is a very new thing. So a man's best friend generally was another man, regardless of sexuality.
________________________
The Dude Abides
Posts: 258 | From: My own wierd, wierd world | Registered: December 23, 2002
Cimmerian
The Sentinel!
Chief Magistrate
posted April 29, 2003 02:35 AM
Wasn't Tolkien and Lewis part of an elite and uppity writers group that viewed women as mother figures, sort of. And couldn't the buddy-buddy relationships of the men in LOTR be inspired by the group Tolkien was in. Nothing gay, but like the camaraderie of a winning-football team. Maybe!
___________________________________________________________________
IN STEEL I TRUST, BY CROM!
Posts: 1265 | From: Grim Grey Mountains, The Frozen North | Registered: December 12, 2002
Gayalondiel
Tavern Hostess
Inn Keeper
posted April 29, 2003 09:46 AM
If by 'elite and uppity' you mean a group of dedicated and highly educated professors at Oxford university who were bonded on many levels, from love of literature and language and the christian faith, then yes he was. Probably they did view women in a homemaker-mother-carer role, as that was the role of women in general, at least in their formative years. Tolkien was always part of a group of like-minded men (the aforementioned Inklings had a precursor at Tolkien's school, and of course he served as an officer on the Somme). So yes, these groups probably bore models for the relationship he wrote between the men in LotR. It should be borne in mind that all men of his situation and age were in the same boat, men socialised with men, and women with women, except for big events.
________________________
The Dude Abides
Posts: 258 | From: My own wierd, wierd world | Registered: December 23, 2002
Sister Bigfoot
The Artist
Shirriff
posted May 06, 2003 12:05 AM
*Here is an idea that I stumbled upon while writing a post. Curios as to where this idea was leading, I ended up writing an essay.
Anyway…tell me what you think. I am curious to see if you agree with me.*
Tolkien: A tool of society?
Friendship between males was encouraged within the male social and educational culture during the time of Tolkien’s youth. The idealised idea of friendship Tolkien adapted to his fictions is not only a reflection of his education, but it also reflects upon how his society strove to control its members who were young and venerable (to those baser needs). Tolkien unwittingly has become a victim of these devises.
Friendship between males was encouraged within the male social and educational ethos of his youth.
Grammar school was single sexed. King Edward's was a single sex school. Even at Oxford it was classed as a single sexed institution (although women were allowed to attend lectures, but they could not earn a degree. Not until 1947. And they had to be chaperoned while attending lectures or tutorials). All through his education Tolkien was separated from the opposite sex.
This lead to Tolkien having limited accesses to women. Given this restriction of male to female contact, it is not surprising that Tolkien lacked the experience of female company, but it also enforced the need for male companionship. Rather, male friendship was encouraged, as the popular practise of forming social clubs with fellow class mates demonstrates.
Tolkien’s learned values of comradeship are showcased through the male characters of his novels. These characters are used to emphasise the idolised idea of friendship.
The male 'bonding' Tolkien experience during his education is notably reflected in his character Eomer.
Eomer, admiring the great deeds of Arogorn declares his admiration by expressing his ‘love’ for him. By today’s standards, using the term 'love' between males would represent something more. But in Tolkien’s Time such declarations were a way of expressing the pure essence that these platonic relationships represented to the male condition: They were meant to enforce the idea that friendship between males was more rewarding than a sexual relationship with a female.
By segregating the sexes the youth of Tolkien’s day were excluded from the sexual mingling between sexes which we today enjoy.
To compensate for the segregation they were encouraged to form close bonds within their own sex. A part of this segregation was the use of idealised friendships with the same sex.
Tolkien, by emulating the idealised ideas of male friendship, he has added to the influence. He has enforced the idea that friendship between males is more rewarding than a sexual relationship with a female.
Unwittingly, Tolkien has contributed to the ‘regime’ of separating the sexes and controlling the urge to reproduce.
Although these ideas no longer suit society today, during Tolkiens it would have been a powerful device.
------------------------
Yes I am a Hobbit, and a fat one at that!
Posts: 669 | From: Adelaide Australia | Registered: December 12, 2002
Gayalondiel
Tavern Hostess
Inn Keeper
posted May 06, 2003 08:14 AM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
but it also reflects upon how his society strove to control its members who were young and venerable
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You seem to be implying that society forced male-male friendship upon men. I don't think that's quite as you make it out to be, but rather that it was the norm, for centuries, for middle-upper class english society to be strongly divided so that one socialised with one's own gender. This all bases itself in the idea that men went out to work while women stayed in the home. Men went for a drink after work, women had sewing groups and discussed childcare. Men went for brandy and cigars after dinner and discussed business: women chatted about society and homekeeping. The society in which Tolkien lived was, still, a natural progression from this, though with greater leniancy after events on the British home front during WW1. I think we're still prone to think of men as repressing women's society, whereas it's much more reasonable to say that women naturally tuned in to these social groups too (with one or two exceptions). I would also point out that while we criticise these society trends for segregating, I find that today's society is too asexualised. For a woman to want to live by old values of being the homemaker suported by a husband is frowned upon, but I don't se that its wrong. Certainly in my sphere of experiance this is the way many men and women's talents would be very well expressed. And notice that in primary schools, there is almost uniformly a couple of years in which children impose a gender separation upon themselves in social situations.
________________________
The Dude Abides
Posts: 258 | From: My own wierd, wierd world | Registered: December 23, 2002
Sister Bigfoot
The Artist
Shirriff
posted May 06, 2003 02:27 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
but rather that it was the norm, for centuries, for middle-upper class English society to be strongly divided so that one socialised with one's own gender. This all bases itself in the idea that men went out to work while women stayed in the home. Men went for a drink after work; women had sewing groups and discussed childcare. Men went for brandy and cigars after dinner and discussed business: women chatted about society and home keeping. The society in which Tolkien lived was, still, a natural progression from this, though with greater leniency after events on the British home front during WW1.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly!!
If not for the Two Great Wars, I believe that today’s society would still be fighting these patterns of behaviour.
The wars did not necessarily force men into being more independent, but rather they allowed women to come to the realisation that they were all capable of doing more then the menial house and child care that was once the mainstream of their lives. The wars also caused a closer bond between men and women. This did not happen over night, but these new pattens of thinking occurred steadily throughout both wars until, at the end of World War Two, the western world was a completely different one to that of Tolkien’s youth.
I’m not saying that for the women who aspirer to match these old values, that it is wrong. Just that for some women, it is a good thing that it is not still the same world for us as it was for Tolkien's pers
------------------------
Yes I am a Hobbit, and a fat one at that!
"Tolkien is hobbit-forming"
Help us grow plant a member by Voting
|
Email This To a Friend
Topic Commands
Click to receive email notification of replies 
Click to stop receiving email notification of replies